Food Addiction and Recovery 

 

Shelly-Anne Mckay on Food Addiction and Recovery

[00:00:00] Heather Lowe: Hi, babes. Listen up. You landed here at the Peripeteia Podcast, and I'm so glad to have you enjoy these real girl talk conversations about the things that matter. From the ordinary to the extraordinary, and every plot twist in between, I welcome you. Life has a way of throwing us curveballs, and these are the stories of female resilience while navigating change with newfound purpose.

This is Peripeteia. I'm so glad you're here. Let's embark on this journey together. Here we go!

 Hi, Shelly-Ann. I'm so happy to have you join me on the podcast today. I am ready to learn , about this topic, which I really don't know much about. So I look forward to learning from you, and I have been learning from you. So for my listeners who don't know, Shelly-Ann is my mentor, my coach mentor and the instructor for all the coaches for the international association of professional recovery coaches in training our certified professional recovery coaches.

So, um, I will of course let you share about yourself, but I know you've just Achieved, maybe like the highest achievement that you can in coaching with all of your background, your education, your training, I've always looked up to you, , recruiting for coaches, you're my shining star. I mean, I always say anyone that gets to be in Shelly-Anne's orbit.

is going to be an improved coach and is going to learn how to actually make transformation in people's lives and really help people change. So I just bow down to you. , you're my idol. You've been a wonderful instructor and a mentor to me. And I'm absolutely thrilled that we've become now colleagues and friends and mutual support for each other.

And I have all the respect in the world for you. So thank you. Thank you for being here. Will you share a little bit about your background and then I know we're going to get into food addiction. So I'm pretty excited about this topic too. 

[00:01:59] Shelly-Anne Mckay: Well, first of all, thank you so much for, you know, the kind words and you are equally, uh, just as much of an inspiration to me.

, you know, it's been really wonderful to watch you and, and the amazing community that you've built and just the way that you are so forthgiving with, you know, all the information that you have. And, , and it's been a joy to just, you know, get to know you and, um, , watch you grow, uh, online too.

So, so thank you for having me here. I'm really excited to be here and to talk about this with you as well. 

[00:02:28] Heather Lowe: Can you share , a little bit, about your story and recovery and how you got into coaching and then. Let's talk about more specifically the food addiction journey.

[00:02:38] Shelly-Anne Mckay: Well, I wish I could say that it was like a actual conscious decision that I made, but it wasn't, I mean, I worked as a television and film producer for like 25 years of my life. And then there was a lot of drugs, a lot of alcohol, a lot of hard work, um, you know, burning the candle at both ends and.

I almost lost my life really to that industry and to just to that career, um, working really, really hard. I mean, I'm a high achiever. And so I was trying to be like the best producer in my area and whatnot. And so that often meant, um, Working, you know, 18, 20 hour days and for like sometimes six, eight months at a time, seven days a week and, and, you know, the body's just not meant to do that.

And so then I was using everything and anything to either stay awake or go to sleep and eventually my body crashed. And it was when I was. , on a bit of a recovery, I guess you could say vacation in, um, St. Lucia that I met this woman in the ocean and she later became my mentor. She was an executive coach and she's like, Oh, do you know what that is?

I'm like, I have no idea. I'd heard about it. And long story short, her and I ended up connecting after the vacation and some voice spoke to me and said, you know, you should ask this lady to coach you , cause I was doing some work for her writing and creative work , , but she was very expensive and I thought, Oh, you know, she's never going to do this for me.

And, and she did, she was like, I would love to do that. And so it was actually her seeing in me like the. I don't know. She saw something in me, I guess, that made her decide to like support me in that way. And it was through that, that originally I was actually going to go after my master's in psychology and, uh, become a therapist.

But then as I started to research that industry, I felt that actually it wasn't going to be what I wanted or needed and then decided to go the route. She's like, well, what do you ever thought about coaching? I was like, ah, but so she put me in my very first coaching class. And from there, as soon as I like saw how powerful coaching could really be. And like, I had done a lot of therapy up to that point and I knew what it was like to experience that. But once I experienced really powerful coaching, I was like, wow, this is amazing. You know? And so let's just say I drank the Kool Aid and I've never looked back. and then it's just been, you know, like I've got over 6, 000 hours of coaching under my belt and lots and lots of continuing education and training and Specialized certifications.

And when I dive into something and I, I make it my path, I want to do it really, really well. And so, uh, so that, that's sort of how I got into it. 

[00:05:13] Heather Lowe: I love it. I love it. You're such a powerful coach. I get to witness it in like group calls and life skills calls. And I know you help coaches in even smaller groups on the side, improve their coaching skills.

And it was you that turned me on to the magic of coaching too. You know, first of all, I had a degree in social work, so I didn't really think I needed a certification in coaching. I also had had personally really bad experiences with therapy. So I didn't exactly know what coaching was. And of course I thought it was giving advice.

And of course I think I give just the best advice that everyone should just follow. And so, um, come to find out, it was really the life skills course with you where I learned. The transformative power of coaching and asking questions and leading a client to their own ahas. And now in my own practice, I just literally witness that transformation every day.

It's so beautiful. And I'm such a fan of being coached, getting a coach, coaching others because I, I witness it. And it's, it's beautiful. And you have more letters after your name than anyone else. There's no one I would trust more to learn from than you. So, so that's cool. And your own recovery story. So yeah, um, taking things to keep you up, taking things to put you down.

was almost like part of the job and your job was to ignore your body signals so you could be a robot and do the things that needed to be done. So you could perform or produce or whatever that means and all high achievers who are listening Enneagram 3, I'm raising my hand. Yeah, we do.

We take these things to bring us up or bring us down or keep us performing in a way that we think we're supposed to be doing. And it, it's abandoning ourselves really, because it's just not listening. It's not tuning in. It's ignoring our own signals or confusing our own signals, because that's what we think we need to do to live in a certain.

world or environment that we've created, but for sure in the entertainment industry, I can't imagine how hard that was. And I'm so glad that you got out and you've been able to heal yourself and then in turn heal others. Uh, where's the coach from St. Lucia now? Is she still around? 

[00:07:24] Shelly-Anne Mckay: Oh, she's still in my life.

Yeah. Yeah. She, um, she's actually based in Toronto. Her name's Adria Trowhill. Uh, she's actually one of the pioneers, I would say, for coaching in Canada, specifically very highly, um, acclaimed by, , both Adler Learning and ICF. And so she's a Dean Emeritus at Adler and, , been training coaches, like, Like over 40 years.

So, uh, , I was very, very lucky. Like to me, that was just kind of one of those serendipitous moments. Like, what's the chances. Cause I talk to people all around the world. Whenever I travel, you know, I'm pretty open and just sort of extroverted. Uh, and I just started talking to her in the ocean.

What's the odds that like, so that I feel like that was a moment that was supposed to happen where I was supposed to meet her and I was supposed to find out about coaching and, and then it was just beautiful to have somebody in my life too, that. Wasn't a family member or a friend that actually really believed in me.

And I think that that's also the power of coaching is sometimes when we don't believe we can do something or, or just have our, you know, our own inner critic of self doubt and things like that, that that's where a coach can be so powerful because they believe in us sometimes when we don't believe in ourselves.

And, and I think that that's really what helps us move forward. And then, like you said, You know, you don't give advice or tell people. So then now when people actually can create the change and make things happen on their own, like how empowering is that? You start to see, like, I can do amazing things. And, uh, and then I think that that just sort of like puts the ball in motion for more and greater, , and not that that we're not good enough as we are, but just that, you know, we have, I think it's exciting to be able to go after dreams and make those kinds of things happen too, the things that we really want to have in our life.

[00:09:07] Heather Lowe: Totally. To take action on those things. To go from thinking to action is huge. And my clients, which I love, that I, I become the voice in their head. And obviously my voice is compassion. And theirs is critic, just like it is for me. Right? So when you can hear a voice of compassion, it, it really turns things around.

[00:09:25] Shelly-Anne Mckay: Oh, totally, totally. 

[00:09:28] Heather Lowe: So tell me because, okay, you were boozing and drugging or whatever you were doing to survive that time of your life. We would call that addiction and we would call that recovery. But what you're here to talk about today is food addiction. 

[00:09:43] Shelly-Anne Mckay: Yeah. 

[00:09:44] Heather Lowe: And. We all have to have food. That's part of sustaining our life.

So, I'm curious about how that is different than the other things that you've recovered from. Do you have a personal journey with food addiction that you can share a background with? Oh, yeah. 

[00:10:02] Shelly-Anne Mckay: Oh yeah. Like I think that it was my first addiction or I came to learn that it was actually my first addiction.

Cause I mean, I had, I have memories of being like five years old and my first addiction type memories with food go back to that young. So five years old, I remember being in like grade one and the kids would go out for recess and I would stay back. And then I would like go through all the lunch boxes and steal all the, like the sweet treats and the cookies and the whatever.

And it wasn't cause I didn't have any of my own. Like my mom had put something like that in mine too, but I wanted more, you know? And so I was obviously getting something from those, those sweet treats, uh, enough that I was being driven to actually steal them from , my schoolmates, you know, 

[00:10:48] Heather Lowe: I mean, I can feel an adrenaline rush, even doing that, sneaking around, getting something, you know, you're not supposed to get.

Getting away with it, not to mention the sugar rush that probably put your little five year old self over the edge, right? 

[00:11:03] Shelly-Anne Mckay: Mm hmm. Well, and who, what little kid needs, you know, 10 packs of cookies, you know, , but yeah, so, I mean, it started then. And so, and I, and I also feel like. Food addiction was something that, I mean, we all need food.

We all need to eat, but I think too, depending on our history and our backstory and whatnot, I mean, food can also be a source of pleasure and a source of comfort. And, you know, our brains were wired very early on to go for food. I mean, we need food for survival. And so, unfortunately though, 

food's been changed in terms of the way that that it's made these days, you know, and ultra processed foods, more or less the stuff that's found in the middle of the store and in those aisles, you know, it's got some very highly addictive properties. And so I think that it was very, , very natural for me then to maybe when I was not feeling good or when I was struggling with something as a younger child to then want to go to those things for comfort.

Cause it was all I ever knew. Like I did fight, I didn't know how to like, do breath work or things like that, that could actually be helpful. But so I knew that Chips Ahoy cookies, you know, they, they were that they did something that they, so I think that I started to use those things. For comfort and for pleasure, and then as I, you know, moved into my teen years, then that's when I started using the alcohol and the drugs.

And then, I mean, from the time I was 12 on, I was using, but then at the same time I was still eating. A lot of these other foods like sugar and candy that, you know, anything that was candy or cake or things like that, it was like my go to. And so then when I did abstaining from alcohol and drugs, uh, then food just like ramped up completely.

And it was just like, Oh my gosh, what's going on here? And then I started noticing the behaviors. I was like, I'm just behaving with food. Like I was with the alcohol and the drugs, like where I was, you know, going at 10 o'clock, 11 o'clock in the middle of night, getting in my car, driving to the store to go and get chips or candy or whatnot at the convenience store.

And, or where, you know, I would start eating a bag of something, uh, chips. And next thing you know, I'm at the bottom of it, never intended to be there. That happened a lot with alcohol, right? I'm just going to have one drink. Next thing you know, the whole bottle's gone. And so when I started to see that the behaviors were showing up, uh, Exactly the same for me with food as they did with alcohol and drugs.

That's when I started to make the connection, like, Hey, maybe there's something going on here. So, so that's when I began to draw those parallels. And food is something that I've been in recovery with now for a long time. I mean, I've been clean from alcohol and drugs, 18 years. And I wish I could say the same for food.

I don't think food is ever going to have that finite line for me. Like the day I stopped eating, you know, you can't stop eating. So it's a it's an everyday journey and decisions around food are constant. . And even though something might be an ultra processed food, I mean, like apples, frozen, or even frozen berries in the store.

I mean, those are processed to a point, but they're still, they're not going to have that same impact as, say, the Chips Ahoy cookie would. You know, that's where they've got chemicals and things added to keep us addicted. So, um, So I feel like the decision making is always present and so it's going to be an ongoing recovery process.

So I don't think that there's like a, Oh, this is the day, unless I give up something and abstain a hundred percent. But for me, I've really struggled with that. Like I'm noticing there's certain things I do have to abstain from completely. And yet there's others that I can moderate. And so for me, it's been a very, experimental journey, let's just say, 

[00:14:36] Heather Lowe: yeah, wow.

So I'm hearing a few things here. One, from a young age, like first of all, milk was our first comfort as a baby, exactly. So it was a, it was a food or nutrition or a substance or whatever that we would consume that would provide comfort. And I'm sure the feeling of sucking is a self soothing mechanism and we use that as a pacifier or whatever that might, it's a security blanket for us in whatever way.

I'm thinking about, um, raising kids myself and you got a boo boo. Okay, now here's a sucker. You're done with the doctor. You literally get a sucker when you leave the doctor's office after a shot. That's a, you know, a sticker and a sucker. And so we reward with food a lot too. When you're, we celebrate with food, much like alcohol.

We're having a celebration at work. There's doughnuts, there's cake, there's, you know, cupcakes or ice cream or whatever that looks like. So we use it as a reward. We use it as a comfort. And it is comforting. Like, give me a grilled cheese. That's my favorite food or mac and cheese. I mean, I'm from Wisconsin, so my grandpa's a cheesemaker, so it's always going to be cheese.

Yeah. 

[00:15:40] Shelly-Anne Mckay: Cheese for me too. Yeah. 

[00:15:42] Heather Lowe: So, but like there are those comfort foods and some of that is really lovely. It's also an experience, right? Of certain restaurant or grandma's dishes or a recipe passed down. It can be part of family tradition. It can be part of your culture. It can be very cultural. It plays such an important role in such a pivotal role all the way around, but going to it specifically for either a rush, like kind of you did even as a child, or as a sense of comfort, both maybe hiding in your room and being in your closet and eating those chips after somebody said something mean to you.

That's just so interesting. So , we all use food for that probably on some spectrum, but then there's also the kind of food and a certain kind of chemical and processed food that maybe hits your brain in a way that's different than the emotional comfort of food? Is that what I'm hearing?

There's an actual thing like, like with alcohol, you would say, first you take a drink, then the drink takes a drink, then the drink takes you. For you or some people, or some chemicals produce the same sort of like literally can't stop eating the potato chips once you have one you are gonna finish the bag because you are powerless over this — is that true?

[00:17:03] Shelly-Anne Mckay: Yeah, like well, I think that there's just like with with alcohol or any kind of substance use disorder You know, there's a genetic predisposition that I think some of us have and so then that's gonna make us more susceptible to things whether that is alcohol or whether that's the processed cookies or crackers or whatever Um, so I think that they're that there's that genetic predisposition for addiction to anything, period. And then introduce substance.

Well, then that substance, there are specific foods. Like I know people say like, what, you know, comparing donuts and cookies to heroin. I mean, yeah, but it's the same. Like if you look at like, there's thousands of articles and, and evidence based research out there that, that show that there are certain food substances that achieve what's called or hit this thing called the bliss point.

So like there was this, psychophysicist by the name of Howard Makowitz, who, who actually created what they call the bliss point. And so the bliss point is this beautiful synchronized combination of sugar, fat, and salt.

And when that is present in a food, it creates. Uh, a hit, they call it this bliss point and it just starts to trigger dopamine. And then our reward system is all like happy in the brain. And next thing you know, we're wanting more and more because now the dopamine receptors get affected. So the more you eat it, the like, the more you get almost like desensitized to it.

So the more you need to actually have the same impact. And so there are. Basically, all kinds of scientists out there who are being paid lots and lots of money to make foods for companies that used to actually be on like they're a lot of our food companies that are in the middle aisles, the stuff they're making in the grocery store, the companies that are making that stuff actually are, they're owned by tobacco companies.

And so I found that really interesting because yeah, You know, there was a very strong addiction component to nicotine. And so , now that smoking is being phased out, you notice how interestingly enough, since the seventies, the ramp up of ultra processed foods, like the section in our store of all the stuff in the middle, it's just gotten bigger and bigger and bigger.

And so those particular foods, I actually called them Franken foods. Cause they're made in a lab. You know, my grandma did not. You know, cultivate goldfish crackers. You know, it's like, this is an invention and it's been designed for profit ocean. Yeah, they did not come from the ocean. Yeah. So, uh, so these, these foods have just been designed to, to make, you know, to get us addicted so they can make money.

[00:19:40] Heather Lowe: Goldfish cracker is a children's food. So tobacco. Can have a much wider audience starting at a much younger age. Oh yeah. Of getting folks addicted. Are goldfish crackers owned by tobacco companies? You know that specifically? Yeah. Wow. Okay. 

You heard it here first.

[00:19:59] Shelly-Anne Mckay: I know they're one of the most addictive foods too. 

[00:20:01] Heather Lowe: I mean those are pretty good hangover snacks too I'll say. When in doubt you go to your diaper bag. I can't say I haven't done that but um, but okay so start with the kids. Goldfish crackers this is like starting in the 70s and then I'm thinking like 80s, 90s

diet culture was all these foods that weren't really foods. Does that fit into this category too? 

[00:20:23] Shelly-Anne Mckay: Yeah, well, and it's funny because you know, you can even think that you're making what are more informed, healthy choices. For example, maybe you're choosing like a light yogurt or a calorie reduced low fat yogurt.

But if you actually look at the ingredients in there, They've had to add other things to make that product taste good and to keep you coming back and buying it. And usually it's sugar. So, but diet, culture, definitely that has, I think it's perpetuated things. I mean, and that's, I think comes from the media, right?

, as a woman, I don't know about you, but I mean, I always have felt this pressure to like look a certain way and be a certain way and, you know, you see the Kardashians on tv, uh, you know, tv, Instagram, whatnot. It's like we, we are. Constantly pressured to look and be a certain way. And then I think that that predisposes us to to diet.

And then I think the dieting is what gets us into trouble because it just messes with our system. And We have this illusion that if we lose weight, we're going to be happier or better. Like I don't know how many women that I've worked with or coached privately that they're like, well, when I lose the weight, then I'm going to go on the trip.

Or then I'll buy that dress. Or then I'll do that thing with my husband or I'll do this with the kids. And I'm like, but why wait? What if you don't see tomorrow? You know, and life is on hold with, with respect to diet. So, and I don't, and I don't know about you, but , every diet that I've ever been on, I've lost the weight and gained back more

always as a result. And that's because typically it's done in restriction. And when you think about the energy that it takes to restrict, you can only do that for so long. Eventually the white knuckling is gonna stop and you are gonna be like, bring on the Cheetos. You know? So at some point that's gotta change.

And uh, then you go back to the other way and then now you end up in the overindulging sort of category. And then what's gonna happen there is when you, when you swing back from the diet restriction, you don't. You don't binge on carrots. Typically you're going to be binging on those comfort foods that we were just talking about because they do work.

They do make you feel good. 

[00:22:30] Heather Lowe: They hit that bliss, like you said, and we're looking for the uptick, just like if it was, um, anything else, if it was scrolling or shopping or alcohol, we want that uptick and that sugar is going to give it to us and it's going to give it to us pretty fast. So there's the genetic predisposition and then there's the foods that actually create , its own desire for more of itself where you control a little bit.

 And there's also environment that says we should be obsessed with this. And I've actually, heard and I hear from my clients too. So many of our thoughts are about our weight and our appearance. Like, like 80 percent of our thoughts are every single day, every single second, every single decision, like you said, are about our weight and our appearance, which is that energy could be used for so many more important things.

But some of that is conditioning as well in the society that we live. I mean, Nancy Reagan told us we couldn't be too rich or too thin. So that is what we're going for. Right. I like that. That is the ultimate goal. You know, that's how we measure our successes. How small and invisible we can be, which is so sad, but is food addiction being addicted to that process stuff or is it being addicted to eating?

Can you, can you get addicted to carrots and vegetables or whatever that looks like? Or is this, is food addiction, can you define it for me? Is it a specific, like can't stop with these chemicals that are hitting that bliss point? 

[00:23:57] Shelly-Anne Mckay: Well, and that's where the, like for, there's a fine line, I think, between, uh, food addiction and disordered eating.

And so, , there's a very individual, uh, situation, I think. Uh, but when you look at actually like research and, uh, global opinion, like from some of the best I would say medical professionals in this field, they've come together and said that in terms of what we want to see happen and, and get into the DSM, which is the diagnostic statistics manual, which therapists use.

And In order to get something into there, we needed to come to consensus. And so they, they have come to consensus on the fact that it is actually very much connected to these particular foods that fall into what are the ultra ultra processed food category. So for, for 50 percent of our diet is falling into that category.

So when, you know, I think every , person does have a bit of a shtick with food and it's typically with those foods, but there are for, in some cases too, where people get addicted to the volume side of things and, and, or it could just be the act of eating. But I think on those sides, there's, there's also maybe some just eating disorder type of stuff that's at play.

, And so that's where, when I do work with somebody around this topic, it is very much we do a screening right out of the gate. I'm not a therapist, but I do use those types of screening tools just to see where people fall and then depending on those results. I might suggest that they connect with a therapist, uh, somebody who I can refer and connect them with, um, just who I know understands food addiction and who can, um, specialize in some work with them around , their, um, potential eating disorder, and they can work on that.

Um, but then there are people who are, there's no eating disorder type of behavior, and it's very clearly like, they just can't stop drinking Dr. Pepper. And. They want to stop that because they know that that's the one thing that's really affecting maybe their health at that point or they, they have tried to stop it and they can't, um, then so then that's where addiction more plays into factor.

But I would say the majority of it is, is the ultra processed foods. 

[00:26:04] Heather Lowe: Yeah. And there is a distinction between disordered eating and food addiction. 

[00:26:08] Shelly-Anne Mckay: Uh, yes. 

[00:26:09] Heather Lowe: So does somebody know if they have this? 

[00:26:13] Shelly-Anne Mckay: Yeah, the signs, I mean, it would look very much like that with addiction, you know, where you're sneaking food, you're going out of your way to go and get food.

You can't stop it. Even like if you've tried to stop eating chips ahoy chocolate chip cookies, and you just cannot stop. . And you find. You're, you're over consuming most of us know what those foods are for us that we just can't get enough of. And, um, that, that we, cause oftentimes that you eat them and then you experience guilt or shame afterwards.

[00:26:43] Heather Lowe: Yeah. 

That's what I was 

thinking. It sounds like a very similar cycle and pattern. And I would go as so far as to say, like, then we get addicted to that cycle and that pattern of, adrenaline rush of anticipation of acquiring our thing. 

[00:26:58] Shelly-Anne Mckay: Yeah.

[00:26:59] Heather Lowe: Going to the drive thru or getting the cookies or the candy or whatever, consuming it with abandon.

Like just. the bliss point, right? And then regret and shame and hating ourselves over it, feeling sick, feeling remorse. The best way to take care of that is to give yourself an up again and to keep doing it. And then with the contradiction, is it the same? And then sometimes I think like we get used to feeling bad about ourselves, closing that cycle to the shame.

Then we're used to feeling shame. So we're finding ways to feel shame. and hate ourselves again because we know we're not worth it. Like it just it feeds into our whole self worth and we're used to doing that over time. Is there a dependence that increases like it would with alcohol? Like if you had one bottle it might turn to two.

Would you have one bag of chips that could turn to two or a bag of candy that's you're needing more to get the same uptick? 

[00:27:54] Shelly-Anne Mckay: Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Um, I've seen that with, you know, certain folks where the volume of that, it's kind of like you don't get just like when you, you know, with cocaine, I mean, it takes more to get the same buzz or with alcohol takes more to get the same buzz.

\ With the food, it can be very much the same. For some people it's, it's not necessarily volume related, but volume can be a factor and because you get desensitized and so you need more. And so maybe instead of now buying the small little bag of chips, you're buying the bigger bag and then the bigger bag and then the bigger bag.

[00:28:27] Shelly-Anne Mckay: And, um, Yeah. So I, I would say that, yes, it does go up. It does go up just like the 

[00:28:32] Heather Lowe: Costco membership bag you can possibly buy. That's right. Yeah. Okay. 

[00:28:39] Shelly-Anne Mckay: That's right. 

[00:28:40] Heather Lowe: Wow. So even is definitely different than like a regular food craving where we all want to bag of chip sometimes, or even our body might be craving salt in a way that's appropriate and healthy.

and balanced this food addiction is something different. 

[00:28:55] Shelly-Anne Mckay: Yeah, because I mean, I think we, I think food. I mean, when you even think back to our like family roots and things like that, I mean, food is very much a part of like our culture and our family and our upbringing. And I feel like, like food is not, it shouldn't be a bad thing.

And just because you eat ultra processed food once or twice or a week, like that does not mean that you have a food addiction. Um, and that food should be to provide pleasure too; it shouldn't just be only for fueling and providing nutrients to your body. Sometimes we want to just indulge in food and enjoy food and then I say we should do so mindfully.

Uh, you know, we, we spend for some of us who struggle with food addiction. It's like you spend your whole time looking and wanting the food, but then when you finally get the food, you're disconnected from it and you're just powering through it and you didn't even experience it. And so even just becoming more mindful

about the food that we're consuming can make it more enjoyable , but I don't think that necessarily. like food addiction is something that everybody is struggling with for sure. I think we all can even be emotional eaters and going to food during times when we're struggling to cope. Like stress for me is a big one.

I'll be feeling stress. And then I've, I've noticed a pattern and that's where mindfulness and awareness has been helpful to me. It's like, Oh, I noticed that. You know, every time when I'm dealing with X subject that I want to go to the, to the snack cupboard and get something and I noticed that I'm actually not even hungry.

So I've made that connection that, oh, okay, stress is equal this, but when I'm stressed, I don't typically go for the carrots. I'm wanting to go for one of those ultra processed type of foods. And, um, I'd be lying if I said like, I don't ever have it in my house because there are foods that I can moderate that are like that.

that, but then there's others that you can't. So for me, that's where I said, like, it's not like I go, Nope, I'm never eating ultra processed food again. I've had to pay very close attention to which ones I can just have a serving of and which ones that I keep going back over and over and over and over again.

And those are the ones that I do not keep in my house because I know that I know that they're just going to be trouble for me. So, yeah, it's a tricky slope sometimes navigating the food at all, that's for sure. 

[00:31:08] Heather Lowe: Ever present for you too. I mean, I'm hearing so much as similar to any addiction, like it's also, um, stress and anxiety.

So it's not getting to the boiling over point with stress and anxiety. And if you're learning to cope and you're doing other things to take care of yourself, you wouldn't have to run to the snack cupboard, right? Like there's a lot of prevention 

can be done, but how do you deal with that? How do you moderate?

How do you say this is an okay time to have one of these snacks or even to yourself to say this snack doesn't make me feel good. 

I'm going 

to do something else. I mean, this is ever present for you and anyone to live with and be faced with. And I think about like the messages I get about alcohol everywhere.

I look, there's a dish towel and a coffee mug and a t shirt. This is even more so for you because it's Part of everywhere. 

[00:32:03] Shelly-Anne Mckay: Yeah. Food is everywhere. I mean, even I was in the office supply store the other day and there's like food all over the aisles. Like I couldn't believe it. I was like, wow, there's a whole aisle of like cookies and candy in this office supply store, 

you 

know, and you go to the till there's like all kinds of candy there again.

I was just like, this is it. 

[00:32:19] Heather Lowe: Literally get your drug legally anywhere, wherever you want and be rewarded for it. 

[00:32:25] Shelly-Anne Mckay: It's at the till, right? Yeah. It's like, it's like everywhere. So yeah, you're, you're constantly, um, bombarded by it for sure. It's everywhere. And I think that in terms of like recovering from it and or managing it, that's why I say that for me, I believe that it's an individual thing.

There are definitely people out there who abstain. They say abstinence is the key to recovery around this. And I think that that's true for some people. But also for some people it is not because I found that for myself, as soon as I went, 'I'm going to abstain, I'm going to never eat sugar, fat, salt, none of that stuff again,'

I mean, then you're pretty much like in this crazy place of restriction for me, which then resulted in, in binging behavior. 

[00:33:09] Heather Lowe: Yeah. It's going to sound very similar to a binge purge cycle too. 

[00:33:12] Shelly-Anne Mckay: Exactly. So, but some people can go, yeah, I'm never going to eat sugar again. And they, they are okay. And they're in a good place, but, and they don't, but for some it's not.

And so that's why I, my philosophy and view on this is that it's very individual. And so like for each person, and that's why when somebody comes to work on this topic, I always say like, if you think that this is something we're going to manage in like just two or three sessions, then I'm not the coach for you, or I'm not the right place for you because This takes time.

It takes time to figure out like what's really going on. We need to be able to look at patterns and watch patterns and, and use that data to then make really good decisions. And so if, for example, you know, I had a client that every day after she got home from the office. She was wanting to, to eat stuff that she was not wanting to consume in her diet.

And so interestingly enough, we just noticed that pattern. It's like, Oh, every time when you come home, this is the pattern. And so then we started to, there's an exercise that I do where we're kind of like rewinding the tape and whatnot and thinking about what's happening. But when you look, there was a pattern of like high stress in the office, no time to take care of herself, taking care of everybody else.

And, but as soon as that. That connection was made as to like why it's all happening, then, you know, she could address. And create change there, which then now she's making completely different decisions, but it wasn't like we could say that, Oh, we'll just never eat that food again and just take it out.

Like, it's not about the food. I always say to people, it's never about the food. It's about all the things leading up to the food. And so, but we have to be almost like private investigators in our life to figure that out. And. And ultimately that process, I think, is going to be helpful for all addictions, not even just food, but to really figure out like what's underlying there and the real reasons, like what you're really hungry for, what's really going on.

Then if we can figure that out and, and solve that case, the rest of it, Kind of strips away. And I remember even I was working with this one client who she was like 600 pounds living life in her bedroom and her dream and her goal was just be able to live life outside of her bedroom. She bought this condo in this building where there was like all this community stuff happening on the lower level.

And she bought it because she wanted to be a part of that community. And that was her, her plan. But because of where she was in her life, she just lived life , in her room. And so her goal was to get outside the room, make food in this beautiful kitchen that she bought and to go downstairs and be in this community.

It was interesting because in our work together, we had uncovered how that even she had this secret passion of always wanting to be an opera singer, but she never really told anybody, , but we got to that in our work together. And interestingly enough, as she started to explore online voice lessons and, as she started to reconnect actually with what was her true deepest passion, it was interesting to see that all of a sudden her 

food behaviors just started to disappear. And literally over the course of a year, she got into like doing voice lessons online, getting outside of her bedroom. Long story short, after our work together, this woman did actually go out of the house. She was going to voice lessons. She did become an opera singer.

Actually, she ended up selling her condo in New York and buying a property out in the country so that she could belt out music at the top of her lungs and not worry about disturbing her neighbors. And like her relationship to food completely changed. And so that's where I was like, see, that's proof.

It's not about the food. It's about what's going on for us. 

[00:36:55] Heather Lowe: Yeah. We're hungry. What are you hungry for and how are you feeding it? That is so beautiful. I love that. There is a hunger. I feel like a Florence and the Machine song right now, but like, there is, we have a hunger, all of us and food is not it, and booze is not it either, hate to tell you, but that's right.

Yeah. But there is a hunger. And so finding what that is, what are you really hungry for in your life? And then , making that happen alongside some tools and techniques and yeah, things to manage walking away from ultra processed food and using it as an emotional crutch and as a stress relief and all those things.

That's, that's really beautiful. 

[00:37:39] Shelly-Anne Mckay: And she originally thought that she's like, well, when she came to me, she's like, I probably need to diet. I need you. And I'm like, actually, I don't think you do. I think that we don't need a diet. Let's not take out anything. She right away thought that I was going to suggest that she stop doing all this stuff.

And I'm like, no, because in lots of ways too, I think that, you know, trauma is very much present for a lot of people who struggle with food addiction too. And so I often say, Like, let's not give up the thing that you're using right now, if it's, if it's popcorn or chocolate bars or whatever that might be, let's not give that up right now, but let's just find out what's really going on and/or what's underlying there.

And maybe, maybe when we can get to that and you can actually heal that, then, then the need for something that you're holding onto there , will disappear. But if you just get rid of the. Like I equate that to like, think of it, you're flowing down this crazy rapid river and you're holding onto this log.

That's helping you get through these really turbulent times. And you just let go of that log. You are going to like drowned right. And, and not make it to shore. So, but if we have a way to like make it to shore and the waters can become calm, you can let go of that log and you can swim to shore and you can get, so it's the same sort of concept of we've got to do the work first underneath.

, and I say get to the root cause in a lot of ways and then, and then the other stuff will, will be much easier to navigate and deal with and often disappear. 

[00:39:03] Heather Lowe: Beautiful coaching metaphor too. I'll give you A plus for that. I love that. But yeah, it's that surface, go to the deep level, , solve the root cause issue, address that and, and the surface stuff starts to take care of itself.

You mentioned something that I wanted to ask because we've kind of touched on it without the. saying it, but food addiction and weight, 

literally 

like weight or size. And how that plays into food addiction and how that plays into shame and society. I mean, I feel like it just adds to it. If the food addiction is adding weight.

And what we talked about in the beginning about like, you can never be too thin. Like that would be the goal for many women, sadly. Yeah. How does that play together with society's roles 

[00:39:51] Shelly-Anne Mckay: Such's a good question. 

[00:39:52] Heather Lowe: Added shame. 

[00:39:53] Shelly-Anne Mckay: Well, first and foremost, I think that food addiction is not something that only people who are in a bigger body struggle with.

I have many clients and many people in our Soul Sisters United community that don't have any extra weight and they still struggle with food addiction. So food addiction is not .. does not equate to body size. however, food addiction, if it's not dealt with it can lead to obesity and things like that, because , the increased consumption of foods like this.

you know, they're gonna, they're gonna have an impact. Um, and if it's not weight, it will just be negative health consequences. It could be, you could become diabetic or there could be problems with cholesterol or heart disease or other things. So eventually health complications can be a part of it. Just like with any other addiction or substance use, you know, when you use too much of it, it does start to have an effect on you in some way, shape or form.

But I just want to make it clear that yeah, food addiction is not like if you saw somebody who was really thin. That does not necessarily mean they don't struggle with food addiction. Um, sometimes, in my own experience too, I've found that there's actually, it's even stronger, you know. So, they're just really good at hiding it.

And, or, uh, borderline eating disorder behavior, maybe they're compensating, you know. So, , Yeah. And then I guess with, with what you were saying about the whole body size and me, I mean, I live in an area right now where it's, it's very challenging and I've noticed just how like every day the cues that I get, because I think there are more medical aesthetic spas that do plastic surgery here around me than there are grocery stores and gas stations.

And so like every second window you see, it's got like imagery like this, Botox, liposuction, you know, all this sort of stuff. And I live in a bigger body. I'm, I'm not a super small, you know, person. Um, and so my body frame is just not like that. And so I see like, I'm like, wow, look at this all around me, like constantly I'm bombarded by it.

So if you have to be, I think really strong and, um, confident, I think in yourself too, and have a high degree of self esteem to not be impacted by that. And that, that takes work. Like I wish I could say that I'm not impacted by that at all. I think I've come a long way, but yeah, it is still a little triggering to me.

And so then you see that and then I'm just like, okay. And especially when you're walking around, like I live where there's all these beaches. So every beach, all these beautiful bodies. Comparison, it comes into mind really quickly and I have to go, okay, you know what, like you're just fine the way you are, you know, um, but I think that that's a bit of a practice too.

, and then I think too, for like our young girls and for the moms and stuff that are out there that. It is so important because I remember my mom, she was impacted by diet culture really early on. And, you know, Twiggy was a big thing back then and trying to be ultra thin. And so I remember being like on diets with my mom when I was like 10.

And I didn't need to be on a diet at 10. But I think that when You have young children who are looking up to you as a mom. It's really important to how you navigate food and what you say about your body and how you view your body. Cause I think that's going to have a big impact. I mean, you're a mom, you probably see it more than me.

[00:43:05] Heather Lowe: Yeah. And I think we need to change the message. I think we can all do this, that just small bodies are beautiful. Like Bigger bodies are also beautiful. We get to make our measurement of success and we can create our standard of beauty. And it doesn't have to be what you're seeing in those med spas manufactured because nobody actually looks like that.

Same with the manufacturing, the food, right? It's like the body and the fake food, you know, and actually here it is beautiful and actual real human body is beautiful without any alterations and they come in all sizes and shapes and different age seasons of our life. We look different, you know, I have clients that, you know, pride themselves on wanting to be the same way.

Well, menopause hits and your body's going to look different. You know, childbearing might change body aging changes your body and we're meant to change. 

[00:43:57] Shelly-Anne Mckay: Yeah. Yeah. Very much. So 

[00:44:00] Heather Lowe: You mentioned some of the health consequences of food addiction. what are some of the first steps that someone should take if they suspect they have this?

[00:44:08] Shelly-Anne Mckay: Well, so I think if you are feeling like, Hmm, is this an issue for me? Um, there is something called the Yale food addiction scale, which is the only approved, uh, clinical tool that can be used to determine whether or not you have food addiction or not. I can give you my website.

I do actually have a quiz on there that people can take to tell whether or not they have a predisposition to this or not. Um, so it's like a quick, quick survey, uh, or you can even just Google that. , but it is actually a print off sheet and you would probably need to use that with a therapist to actually like go through it, but you, you could do a screening.

And essentially, and see, is this something that I'm struggling with? Um, and then I think the first step after that is figuring out where to get support, you know, and how, how can you be supported to figure out what's the right path for you? Because I don't know, again, I'm just a firm believer, and maybe this is even just as a coach.

That there is no cookie cutter. Like if everybody goes through X and they will all achieve the same, I feel like with especially food addiction, if this is something that there's like a high score towards that, but then having a one on one relationship with somebody to like a food addiction coach to work with you on that would be great.

Not only myself, but I also have a team of people who I've trained in this, I have a program where I train professionals who are like therapists and nutritionists, dieticians, doctors, um, to become knowledgeable in this subject matter, because as much as these professionals go to school, they never really were trained in any of this, and so, uh, I give a huge hats off to the folks out there that have decided to take the training and become aware of this, , and how to, how to help folks navigate.

And so I think coming in though, and doing an intake with like someone like myself or somebody on my team to sort of just see where you're at. And then from there, they might recommend that, okay, based on what you're saying, I think like you need to see the doctor, do some stuff there. Maybe it's a little bit of time with therapist, or maybe it's time with like a social worker or whatnot, but some.

You know, figuring out who is going to be the person to help them get, get through and, and essentially seek recovery. , and or if, if working with somebody on a one on one basis like that, isn't, isn't an option. That's where I created the Soul Sisters United community because we were finding there was a lot of women out there that didn't have the financial resources or the insurance or things to cover, Private services like that.

And so the community, it is basically those same professionals, many of them whom I've trained in my, in my program, those professionals are the hosts in that space. And so people can have the ability to ask questions and get support. And there is like workshops that we do and, , uh, everything from like sleep hygiene to, , tapping for cravings and, , Like right now I'm doing a vision boarding workshop around your relationship with food and so there's all kinds of different things that people can do in there that, uh, are covered by the cost of a monthly membership instead of having to buy for all these services, uh, separately.

So that's another option for people too, but I think essentially it's, and then if those are just not an option, then I think it's really about, like being the detective in terms of like the one food that you're maybe struggling with and if that happens to be those goldfish crackers, then to take steps to take notice of after you eat those crackers, to think back to what was happening just before you ate those crackers.

What was going on? What was happening there? Was I angry? Was I sad? Was I, I don't know. Was I, um, tired? You know, what were the feelings that I was having and then maybe finding other ways to address those feelings and experimenting with that. So if you were tired and noticing that that's the recurring pattern is every time I'm tired that I go for those crackers, well then maybe now trying to find ways in which that you can get sleep instead or rest your body and seeing, does that actually make a difference?

So a little bit of self experimentation, but it's always harder to do that stuff alone. Um, But, but you can, , you just need to know the steps to take to do it. 

[00:48:11] Heather Lowe: Yeah. Those goldfish crackers are an upper man. So people could, they can go to your website, they can take a quiz. They can consult. one on one with you and or you train other professionals whether they're therapists or coaches or social workers specifically on food addiction and they can work with you in a group with your soul sisters united group and you have different therapies and modalities and things there to help with overall stress and managing cravings and Just developing a healthier relationship with food.

[00:48:50] Shelly-Anne Mckay: That's right. 

[00:48:50] Heather Lowe: Imagine your education as part of all of that too. 

Like teaching people about the foods and teaching people where they are in the grocery store, teaching people where this may have come from, um, just educating people on their own. You know, maybe removing the blame and shame, but maybe it has been used as a way to protect in the past or a way to escape in the past.

And, um, there's ways out of it though. 

Healing and recovery that can happen. 

[00:49:17] Shelly-Anne Mckay: That's right. That's right. Yeah. So lots of different paths. And I think that ultimately, like, don't let that feel or be overwhelming. I think the first step is really to figure out, like, is this something that I struggle with?

And you don't really need, I think, a quiz to tell you that. Because I know before I ever walked down this path, I knew I was struggling with food. You probably know yourself. You don't need that to tell you, but so if, if you want the validation, then, then that's how you can get it. Um, but I think like, if you know, this is something that you're struggling with or certain foods that you're struggling with it, it's worth exploring, you know, freedom from it is possible.

Yeah. 

[00:49:56] Heather Lowe: What would you like, what changes would you like to see in the way society addresses food addiction? 

[00:50:02] Shelly-Anne Mckay: Well, my big dream there is that actually just medical professionals understand it. I mean, even in the eating disorder community, , there's a kind of a tension that exists between those of us who see the science and the evidence and the research around food addiction and eating disorder.

They, are very much butting heads, you know? And so I think that I would really like to see these two sides come together and work together. Okay. And, uh, and I would just really love to see my dream is just that all medical professionals and people who are in those sorts of roles have a real understanding of food addiction and they don't see it as a lack of willpower on behalf of the people because I'll tell you, I wanted nothing more than to stop eating the things that I was eating and or to lose the weight or to get healthy or to, you know, I did.

I wanted that just as bad as the next guy. But to go to my doctor and say, like, I'm struggling. I can't deal with this. And then have my doctor go, well, just exercise more and just eat less. You know, I just, I'd be like, what the F like, are you kidding me? You know? So it was, it was just very obvious that they didn't understand it.

And so it was actually in training health coaches too, because I've trained hundreds of hundreds of health coaches around the world. And in training those coaches, I heard many of them say to their clients, those same words. Well, just, it can't be that hard. Just stick to the diet and buckle down. And, and then I became very clear to me that there's a lot of people who do not understand what's really going on for people.

So my dream is that. That, that all the others out there, the trainers, the dietitians, the health coaches, the doctors, the nurses, the, you know, the, all of us who've experienced any kind of medical trauma from medical professionals, that those people become informed about food addiction and what it's like to live in a bigger body and or struggle with this topic and or not be in a bigger body and struggle with this topic.

And so, that's my wish is that there just becomes this global understanding so that people are met with more compassion , when they struggle with this and, um, not shamed about it. 

[00:52:04] Heather Lowe: Yeah. Yeah. You've helped me and just thinking about how I can support friends and family or society, anyone dealing with this.

It's not an issue of willpower and it's not eat less, exercise more. It's not as simple as that. And it's not laziness. Size may or may not be related to it. Don't make that assumption. Right. And that the person who is struggling with this deserves compassion and , nobody wants to have this problem.

Like nobody wants to have a drinking problem. Nobody wants to have a food addiction problem. So that's right. A person struggling who needs support, not stigma. 

[00:52:40] Shelly-Anne Mckay: Yeah. And I actually feel like recovery. It's like, I feel like there's more stigma attached to the food side of things like I mean, it's like, I don't know, recovery from alcohol and drugs and things like that.

I mean, it's been out there in the in the mainstream longer than this whole concept of food addiction. And so I feel like there's a lot of shame and stigma that's really attached to this right now. And so, um, I know that it's really hard to step forward when this is something that you struggle with.

And that, and I often thought to myself, like, man, I'm super successful. I'm doing multimillion dollar deals. And yet I can't get my crap together and stop eating marshmallows. Like what the heck? Like, you know what I mean? Like, how can this be 

[00:53:21] Heather Lowe: Self stigma? Yeah. 

[00:53:23] Shelly-Anne Mckay: Yeah. 

[00:53:24] Heather Lowe: Well, you're beautiful and thank you for sharing about it.

Thank you for your open heart. We know that is the way to change the world is to start one story, recover out loud, one conversation at a time that you too are going at this as a human being, right? And somebody who also struggles, but has found some ways to cope, has educated herself, has some systems in place for you that you now can teach other professionals and other folks struggling.

So it's a brave topic to talk about Shelly-Ann and I'm really proud of you for doing it out loud. It can't be easy and there is so much out there and I feel like people won't don't believe it's real, 

right? 

Like it's not a real thing, right? But it is a real thing and so you're absolutely validated in your journey and I appreciate you sharing with us.

[00:54:12] Shelly-Anne Mckay: Thank you. Thank you for giving space for it and for all the other people out there who struggle with this. You're not alone. And um, I'd love to walk with you on that journey. 

[00:54:23] Heather Lowe: Yeah. So I know you have a special offer for our listeners today. Um, do you want to share that? We'll close with you sharing that.

And then of course, everything will be in the show notes. People can connect with you directly. Um, but I appreciate you giving a special code for anybody that wants to explore this a little further. 

[00:54:38] Shelly-Anne Mckay: Yeah, well, the the Soul Sisters United Community, so I'll provide a code and so that's S S U D T D. So S S U, ditch the drink, and then, uh, that will give people like a free month pass so they can come in and experience the community and see if, if that feels like home and safe place for them.

And, um, we'd love to have you join us there. 

[00:55:01] Heather Lowe: Thank you so much for your generosity. 

[00:55:03] Shelly-Anne Mckay: Thank you, Heather. Thank you for having me, and thank you for making space for us all to talk about these really, really important topics. , nobody better to do it with than you. 

[00:55:15] Heather Lowe: And that's a wrap for today's episode of the Peripeteia podcast, a talk show for women. Join us in the insider community with a seven day free trial to continue the conversation at ditchedthedrink. com. And don't forget to download my free ebook, The 12 Truths to change your life. Do it for the plot. \ , We'll see you in the next episode. Lots of love. .