Leaving an Emotionally Abusive Marriage

 

Laurie Bylsma

. 

[00:00:00] Heather Lowe: Before we begin today's episode, I want to give you a trigger warning. In this discussion, we will be addressing topics that include suicide and domestic violence. I understand that these subjects can be distressing and may not be suitable for all listeners. If you or someone you know is struggling, please consider reaching out to a trusted person or professional support.

Your mental and emotional well being are important. If you feel this content may be too much for you, It's okay to skip this episode or listen when you're in a safer headspace. Take care of yourselves.

 Hi, babes. Listen up. You landed here at the Parapatea podcast, and I'm so glad to have you enjoy these real girl talk conversations about the things that matter. From the ordinary to the extraordinary, and every plot twist in between, I welcome you. Life has a way of throwing us curveballs, and these are the stories of female resilience while navigating change with newfound purpose.

This is Peripatea. I'm so glad you're here. Let's embark on this journey together. Here we go! I'm so excited. I have a really dear friend to share a story with us today. Her name is Laurie, but I call her Gootch.

Gootch, welcome. I'm going to share like brief background. About how we know each other, but that I'm going to turn it over to you to share a brief background about how we know each other and then we'll get into it. So how we worked together. So I moved from Wisconsin to Chicago and we worked together at a place that was like, , the college after college, I would call it like they hired so many new grads.

So it was so fun to , Meet your people in a new city right away. And of course, Gootch is from Michigan, but we landed here in Chicago together and our little HR jobs, and then pretty quickly you left that job that was in the burbs for a fancy recruiter job in the city of Chicago, and then you brought me along with you.

So, um, so that was awesome. So we worked together in years past and I've stayed friends obviously for decades. But what I thought about you when I first met you, which I told you the other day is, um, I just had this vision of you. So you were like the youngest with all these older brothers and they were all, , hockey players.

So you had an ice rink in your idyllic Michigan home in the backyard. And so I have this image of all your brothers. Skating around in their hockey skates and then little you Gootch Blondie in her, um, figure skating skates and outfit. And I think that's like the most ideal Christmas card. And then I know, I think, I don't know if I made this up or it's true that you had like, , Laura Ashley in your bedroom and all this stuff.

So you were just like my dream girl from day one to meet this like adorable Michigan Blondie girl Gootch and have been my lifelong friend ever since. What is your recollection of our first meeting?

[00:03:02] Laurie Bylsma: I love your picturesque, vision of, of my life. It's amazing because of course, nothing is as delightfully perfect as that.

But, , , it's just makes my heart like swell to hear that because, um, it's interesting now as an older person to look back and think, I understand why you framed it that way in your head. It's so great. My recollection is, um, of course that job that we had and you were so fabulous and cool.

You were living with your boyfriend. It was very exciting. Like, who is this grown up?

[00:03:45] Heather Lowe: That boyfriend is now my husband of like almost 30 years, 

[00:03:48] Laurie Bylsma: 100 years. Yes. Yes. Exactly. And, um, having so much fun with you at that job and, um, you putting the, uh, snail on my computer, do you remember? Because I had to slow down and you put a snail on my computer and I sang a goofy song from from a Christian musical I was in in grade school.

About patience and, and you put that snail on my computer. I remember that and coaching with you at that job and, um, just becoming fast friends. And of course, living out some craziness at our next job down in the city together. Um, and you were, In my mind, you were cutting edge with your hip mom who raised you by herself initially you're, you know, for a while after your parents split and \ , you had a, uh, fervor and love for your friends and your background and you were just so much fun.

And that's what I remember. 

[00:04:58] Heather Lowe: Coming full circle. Thank you for sharing that. One, because we were. Because we were so good. That job was basically customer service. Let's be honest. Well, we were so good that we were the coaches. 

[00:05:09] Laurie Bylsma: Yeah. 

[00:05:10] Heather Lowe: And now I'm an actual coach and you the snail and snow slow down. This is crazy because nobody knows this yet, but by the time this airs, they will know my next group challenge and my group coaching is to be slow.

Oh, no way. Just sent me like another beautiful sign. So, I love that. And I can't believe you thought I was cutting edge because I felt like a country bumpkin coming to visit. And, um, you lived in the city, but I had the boyfriend. So we lived in the burbs. So we were all living out our house. So that's the other thing.

So it was this age where it was like, I thought it was crazy because you were a first friend that didn't know me without my boyfriend. 

[00:05:50] Laurie Bylsma: Oh, 

[00:05:50] Heather Lowe: my friends from high school and college had a whole history of knowing me without him. But he had been with me since our first meeting. So you've only known him, which is interesting because it goes to our conversation today about marriage.

Which is also interesting because you have like such a huge story and when I asked you like what is what do you want to talk about or what is the topic or whatever you said, leaving an emotionally abusive marriage. And it got me. It was like, Oh my gosh, she's going there. I'm going to cry. Like that was, I know.

So here we go. Here we go. We thought we would probably do this, right? 

[00:06:30] Laurie Bylsma: Your producer is going to have a lot of awkward crying too. 

[00:06:35] Heather Lowe: First five minutes we'll start crying just because you've approached a really deep and meaningful subject and you brought it up with me, like who I've been and that I've been with.

Somebody, since we've known each other and it was the time of our life where people were getting married, I mean, it was always a bridesmaid, never a bride, you know, it was the era of our later twenties where we met and that was our life at that time. And you had a vision and a goal for your life. I remember specifically you and your best friend, both you had like, we're going to be married by 30 and we're going to marry these people.

And this is what our life is going to look like. Tell us who you were at that time and what you were looking for. 

[00:07:12] Laurie Bylsma: Um, I was very young and dumb. I still am dumb, but just old. Um, no, but , I had an idea of what life had to be or what it was supposed to be, what it was going to be. And I was in pursuit of that.

 and. At that time in my life, my dad did the very best that he could and, and he did an exceptional job in many ways, but with four older brothers and a very man's man, kind of dad and world that I lived in and that I was raised. And I always joked that it was a locker room. They ruled the roost. So my mom and I were just like trying to avoid the actual locker room of it.

But I was always told like, good thing you're cute. Gootch. Cause. You're not very smart or, you know, I,, I was not raised with any sort of person, not a single person telling me that I was smart, that I was capable, that I was amazing, that I could take care of myself. Never once did anything like that happen.

So yes, I had the adorable bedroom and the ice skating and other things, but I did not have, , any of that sort of thought, uh, frame of mind, teaching anything, support growing up. my mom is wonderful. Um, but. I think also really married into the scenario that filled her vision of what a woman should be back at the time that she got married and whatever year that was, um, and that she would take care of the home and she became a nurse.

She took care of babies. She started having babies immediately, had enough that it was time for her to stay home. My dad was successful enough at that time to, to take care of everything, but it also pigeonholed her into a life that didn't give her a lot of outside satisfaction, a lot of hopefully inside satisfaction inside the home satisfaction.

[00:09:23] Heather Lowe: You immediately said about my mom. Like I was raised by a renegade, like my mom, not by, well, I mean, necessarily her choice, but she was divorced by the time she was. 25. Oh my. And she had a baby, you know, she got married at 21 or whatever, 20, maybe 21, had a baby, me, two years old, less, I was less than three years old when my parents were divorced.

So my mom was under 25. And she never wanted a divorce, right? She just wanted a family and a baby. She just wanted a, a. husband that was going to be a dad and be home. And my dad wasn't. He also did to the best of his ability, but he really had to skedaddle a lot and not be around because that was the best that he could do.

So my mom, you know, obviously wasn't going to let him take us both down. So she had to file for divorce, which broke her heart. But you were interesting and attractive with that independence and what my mom was forced to do i so envious that you had a the professional homemaker 

[00:10:24] Laurie Bylsma: Oh yeah, absolutely. 

[00:10:26] Heather Lowe: Iron does that? Like she did h And I love that and I value that homemaking and my mom didn't have an opportunity to do that right or it's a different situation and that you mentioned even at the beginning like, oh I had this mom that did this and oh your mom did this and I was attracted because I felt like I had a broken home.

You know, or something and you had it perfect and you're like, wow, you had a mom that was so confident and independent. And 

[00:10:53] Laurie Bylsma: yeah, 

[00:10:54] Heather Lowe: but you are too. You're always been that surprises me. I didn't know that. Like you are so smart and accomplished yourself and were professionally good. The minute I met you, I would have never thought anything less than that.

So that's interesting in your own family too. Yeah. Cause you were a girl. You were not a boy. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. Okay. So you had this vision of what, okay. You had this background and then you had this vision of what you wanted for your life. 

[00:11:20] Laurie Bylsma: Yep. Yep. And I met. Brad, and start crying. Um, and he, in many, many ways, he fulfilled that vision of what I was going to get out of life.

What I just literally what I thought life looked like. I don't even know how else to say that because I don't want to say, Oh, I was going for a MRS degree. I was not, I wasn't going for I don't want to, I don't, it's hard to explain. It was just literally the only thing I knew how to envision 

[00:11:59] Heather Lowe: maybe security, a life of security and financial security in some ways, like your mom can, and to be able to raise children, maybe have time and flexibility to raise children the way that your mom also did.

[00:12:13] Laurie Bylsma: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so, um, he was an attorney and he was. Very interesting I mean, he was sort of an anomaly. He had earrings. Um, but he also had like a buzz or like a very professional haircut. And then he, when I met him, he was wearing a, , polo button down and khaki pants. And he was smoking and he was a drummer in a band, but also lived in a high rise downtown Chicago and worked for a big law firm.

Like he was just all kinds of things. And, and actually, , I met him because I was out with coworkers from our job. were you there? 

[00:12:55] Heather Lowe: Not that night. 

[00:12:56] Laurie Bylsma: I don't think, yeah, I didn't think so. , and I didn't have any money. So I told them I can't go out tonight. I don't have any money.

And my, our boss, um, offered to pay. And, um, and we went to this bar, one of our coworkers, it was in his neighborhood. Well, that was Brad's. hangout where his best friend was a bartender and I was watching hockey on the TV, but he thought I was looking at him. And, and then once I realized that I'm like, Oh, he's smoking him in a bum, a cigarette off of them.

[00:13:29] Heather Lowe: Heather's not here to bum one. Let's be honest. 

[00:13:34] Laurie Bylsma: And so I did. And then while we were talking and I was being polite, I kept watching the The TV over shoulder and he's like, you weren't looking at me where you were looking at the TV. And I was like, yeah. And then I started excitedly talking about this hockey game.

Um, and I still remember exactly what the game was and why it was exciting and all the things, . , and then he asked me to go to the Blackhawks game, um, two days later. And I was like, Okay, whatever, you know, and then he took my phone number and didn't write it down and I'm like, Oh, I'll never see this guy again.

You know, this is nothing. And it was the middle of January, and at one point I realized I needed to meet up with my roommate, so I bundled up and ran out the door and all of a sudden he was coming out the bar behind me. You know, saying where are you going? And, and I'm coming with you. And he got us a taxi and I'm like, Oh, sweet.

Cause I was going to have to take the train because I didn't have any money. And, um, and sure enough, he followed me to the next bar and. Called me Sunday morning, remembered my phone number and, um, I found out later when he got home from the bar at like two in the morning, he wrote down on a piece on an envelope on his ironing board.

Cause I, he, it was there. I saw it later. Cute girl I met tonight and my phone number. So he had, he had a photographic memory and he remembered it. And, um, we started dating of course. And it was a interesting courtship because. He stressed me out and I couldn't tell you why he stressed me out. Um, but he was there And then he wouldn't be there.

He was available, but then not available. Um, just kind of mysterious. And that's probably what hooked me in, in an unhealthy way is that it was like when he was there, he was very in, in it to win it. Um, so I didn't understand the times when he was detached. And that really, um, probably sealed the deal of me, of my interest, you know, um, You have 

[00:15:52] Heather Lowe: a meet cute and now you have a little bit of a chase.

[00:15:55] Laurie Bylsma: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, we dated, uh, there were lots of red flags that I ignored. and like, like I just described Hard looking back this far. It was, it was a million years ago, but, just. really seeing when I look back, I think about the red flags. I told you the other day, in the morning when I was, would brush my teeth during that dating period.

I almost always threw up every morning when I brushed my teeth. And our friend said to me, That's stress. And I was like, no, it's fine. Uh, you know, it's no, it's not, it's just something's wrong. I don't know. You know, I dismissed it. And it was definitely my body saying something's wrong. You, something's wrong, period. Hard stop.

So, you know, there's lots of reflection I can do now, but back on that and think about 

[00:16:52] Heather Lowe: you got him fast. I remember it was like, you met, you had a date and you were nearly moved in with him so fast. Officially, but unofficially you were staying there. All your stuff was there. You had your own space there.

You were coming straight to work from there. His great apartment in the city was just like, yeah, you were, you went in fast. 

[00:17:15] Laurie Bylsma: Yeah. Yeah. That's what I wanted. Right. I mean, I, I all warning signs be damned. I was. in it to win it, 

[00:17:24] Heather Lowe: and he fit the requirements that you were looking for. And I love that too, that he was this professional lawyer by day and had an edge and was a drummer.

Yeah, right. I mean, what a perfect combo. No wonder 

[00:17:35] Laurie Bylsma: and had and incredible friends. 

[00:17:38] Heather Lowe: Yeah, 

[00:17:39] Laurie Bylsma: yeah, that was one thing too that was obviously very appealing and that he clearly had strong friendships and really cool, smart, wonderful people. 

[00:17:50] Heather Lowe: Yeah, you are so outgoing. You're so friendly and outgoing and you have so many friends.

So that's interesting because he also had great friends, but he was not outgoing. 

[00:18:00] Laurie Bylsma: No, no. And he wasn't, he wasn't good to my friends. 

[00:18:03] Heather Lowe: Yeah. He was awkward almost to be around as your friend, you know, 

[00:18:08] Laurie Bylsma: well, as me in, in trying to manage that, always managing that 

very stressful. 

[00:18:15] Heather Lowe: Yeah. Cause you were outgoing and you couldn't just let him be, he would just sit in the corner by himself.

Like he wouldn't engage. You had to work very hard to want to keep the peace and you want everyone to like him as much as you like him. And you want him to like your friends as much as you like your friends. 

[00:18:29] Laurie Bylsma: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I, you know, again, now looking back, that is a control, tactic. I don't, everything that I say about him in a negative way, I don't think he intentionally did just to, to be clear.

I think, His unhealth and just, I don't know how else to describe it, but his unhealth led to these behaviors for sure. And, and whether it was intentional or not, I mean, I'm not here to judge, but, um, but, but even just reflecting, hearing your, your perspective, I don't think he intended to do that, but he did it.

And it was, Who he was. It was how he behaved and it was control because if he makes it awkward when I'm with you, then I'm going to be with you less. 

[00:19:18] Heather Lowe: I can see that. With his own attachment issues. Either way, also him here and there for you. Yes and no. Intimate, but then not. A part of him you couldn't really get to, right?

Which is like, oh good, then you have to keep chasing, which is exactly what us women just, you know, fall over to get to do. Now we know this, but not when we were in our 20s. No. So your courtship goes, you meet his friends, he meets yours, you're staying there. Often, what is the progression? Now? What happened?

[00:19:47] Laurie Bylsma: Um, , after 9 11, which of course is part of our story too. And I'll just say we were together on 9 11. I, I would have liked to have included that in my, how I remember meeting your, you know, reflecting on our early friendship. But, Um, we were together and 

[00:20:04] Heather Lowe: We had been friends for years by that point, though.

[00:20:05] Laurie Bylsma: Yeah, yeah, we had . So 911 we leave our workplace, which is kitty corner from Sears Tower at the time Sears Tower, I refuse to call it anything different. Um, and You lived out in the burbs and then I was staying with him at his downtown apartment. So I think we walked there. We walked, 

[00:20:23] Heather Lowe: we held hands and basically ran thinking it was next.

Thinking it was the next thing to get hit. We thought it was quite possibly the last day of our lives. Yeah. Holding hands with each other 

[00:20:34] Laurie Bylsma: as is appropriate. 

[00:20:37] Heather Lowe: Right. Exactly. Which, and if that day comes, I really do hope that's how it is, but yeah. So we. Screaming, crying, running, terrified. 

[00:20:46] Laurie Bylsma: And, uh, yeah.

And then stayed at, well, we were at his apartment watching the coverage on TV for quite a while. Right. And then, um, 

[00:20:54] Heather Lowe: because the trains were shut down, so I couldn't get to the burbs, I couldn't get to Darren, which was my main, my goal, you know? Right, right. Eventually I did. 

[00:21:02] Laurie Bylsma: Right. I mean, once we were done cuddling, um, yeah.

And then, , so that, that interesting pivot in our story, Brad and I really, he lost his job. I don't know how much after that, but he worked for a very small, um, department of this law firm as a certain kind of attorney practicing a certain kind of law and they downsized. Um, and so he was. Home. We actually got rid of his apartment, moved into my apartment, um, and he wasn't working for a long time and.

I realize now how detrimental that probably was for him. and it led to some pretty bad behaviors when we were still in Chicago out of him. Um, all of which I brushed aside saying, you know, he's going through a hard time. He's unemployed. Um, and then he got a job offer for a great position out in Boise, Idaho.

And he asked me to go with him. So obviously that was a huge, turning point. I did not want to go to Boise, um, but he made it very clear. He wanted. To spend the rest of his life with me. He didn't propose at that time, but, this was a great opportunity. We went out there, we house hunted, um, and accepted the job and moved.

, yeah, that was really hard. Oh God, that was hard. talk about isolation. Um, we did not know my mom's cousin when we moved there, but she was a realtor. So she was instantly our realtor. It was the only person we knew. Um, and she's, you know, 40 years older than us.

Um, a lovely woman, but, um, yeah, so that was incredibly difficult. Very isolating. I kept my job that I had in Chicago and worked from home. Also incredibly. Isolating, he starts this great new job. He's engaged. He's meeting people. He's loving Boise. The weather there is fantastic. Sunny. It's just a really lovely place.

Um, he really started to thrive and I did not. Um, but eventually I found a job outside, you know, not working from home and local to Boise. that was really good for me, for my self worth and my confidence. It was exactly the type of job I wanted. Um, and I was appreciated there. I was, , really valued at that job and made wonderful, wonderful friends.

So that was great. Thank goodness. So yeah, then, we got married and, , you were there 

[00:23:57] Heather Lowe: and with my brand new baby, 

[00:23:58] Laurie Bylsma: your brand new baby. Right. 

[00:24:00] Heather Lowe: Yeah, that was her first wedding. And it was a beautiful wedding. And I do get them with Michigan cherries as the papers were adorable and your dress was adorable.

And, it was a gorgeous, gorgeous wedding. And I think maybe we had been, well, we planned my wedding together and then it was yours and it was like, maybe you had an idea for marriage and what you wanted out of a husband and a marriage, but also you had ideas about what you wanted for the actual wedding.

Oh, yeah. Wanted to plan the wedding. And I sat there like, you did it. You know, Yeah. Well, wedding, you were the beautiful bride and it was as ideally, cause I remember your childhood, right?

I didn't know this guy that well, and you were not living here and so, but it was a beautiful wedding. 

[00:24:51] Laurie Bylsma: Yeah. It was. 

[00:24:51] Heather Lowe: How did you feel on your wedding day? Do you remember? 

[00:24:53] Laurie Bylsma: It's funny because, um, I love that we're discussing this. I went through wedding pictures yesterday with my daughter because we're moving and we're sorting through things and, um, looking at those pictures and seeing his face, um, it brought back memories of having to manage a couple of situations that were incredibly awkward because of him..

Um, and one example is that he hated our photographer. She was, and it was one of those situations where instantly I could tell that this wasn't going to be a love connection between the two of them. And I found myself trying to manage it and manage her and manage him and make it okay. And, , that is, I mean, just right back to talking about my friendships and managing him, managing the friend, , you know, all of that very stressful, very full time because yes, I am outgoing.

I am friendly and I can, I can fake my way through an uncomfortable situation or, uh, you know, a displeasurable. Interaction with a, with a human being, but he could not. And it was very awkward with our, photographer. 

[00:26:15] Heather Lowe: What was your fear of him? 

[00:26:18] Laurie Bylsma: That he would, I just stopped myself from cursing, um, that he would tell her to screw off.

[00:26:25] Heather Lowe: you were afraid for her and embarrassed for yourself. Yeah. And disappointed in him and it just turns it into a volatile, almost volatile situation. So you wanted to not rock the boat. Keep the peace. 

[00:26:39] Laurie Bylsma: Oh yeah.

[00:26:40] Heather Lowe: Just smooth, smooth, all the wrinkles, 

[00:26:42] Laurie Bylsma: everything's fine.

Everything's 

fine. Everything's fine. 

Everything's fine. 

[00:26:47] Heather Lowe: And tell yourself and everybody that everything's fine, even when it's on fucking fire. Okay. 

[00:26:52] Laurie Bylsma: Yes. Yes. Okay, good. We can curse.. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's funny because the pictures that we pulled up yesterday, or we're looking at yesterday, there he is with a scowl on his face.

You know, just having his like by himself, single portraits taken with her and his groomsmen and whatever. And you could just see the disdain on his face and I was, yeah, it's just, it, it's a full time management type. Scenario of discomfort. Yeah. 

[00:27:24] Heather Lowe: Otherwise the day was beautiful. It was beautiful. It was accomplished.

You've been planning that for quite some time. Yeah. And 

[00:27:29] Laurie Bylsma: then I ended with me standing on a chair in the dive bar, downtown Grand Haven with everyone chanting, Gootch, Gootch, Gootch. So everything was great. Yeah. Um, so yeah, married and, and on our honeymoon, he said, . I want, I want you to get pregnant.

Um, and we started trying immediately and, um, I, so we got married in July and I was pregnant by that fall. Um, and ecstatic, I mean, you know, again, it just filled the whole picture of what was supposed to happen. Right. Um, and I remember, oh, it's going to make me.

But waking up, taking a pregnancy test because I suspected that I was and then waking him up to tell him and he hugged me and rolled over and went back to sleep. And. It did not take very long into that pregnancy for me to realize that he, I thought he was working his ass off at his job and coming home late or stopping for a beer on at the bar on the way home and then coming home.

But once I was. Not going to the bar with him for a beer after work and I, I was working my ass off at the time. once I realized because I was home throwing up pretty much every day. Um, and I realized very quickly he was at the bar from about 5...530 at night until. Anytime it could be seven, eight, nine, 10, 11.

and I did not know that before, before, before I was pregnant.

And there's,

 there's a rejection

that I don't even know how else to describe it, except that's the feeling that I had all the time that from the minute I got pregnant,

truly till today. I felt protected by the person I knew loved me with all his heart. So that is a scenario. I can't begin to explain to someone except that it's narcissism and it's unhealth and I can say now with every confidence in the world that he loved me and my babies with all of his heart and to the very best of his ability.

But that is not what that feels like. Because it's such an unhealthy love. So. Truly by, I really, you know, it took me first. I just felt very underwhelmed by telling him I was pregnant and his reaction. And then slowly, but surely throughout my pregnancy, I realized where he was every night. And then by the time.

I was due December 5th. Um, Thanksgiving was coming up. We're living in, in Boise. We had some great friends, really great friends. So I was, you know, eight and a half, nine months pregnant and he insisted that we host Thanksgiving. So, okay, fine. We host Thanksgiving for everyone. Thanksgiving. I'm having contractions, just Braxton Hicks, but, , the next day he said, let's go to Sun Valley to ski this weekend. And I was like, um, you know, I'm nine months pregnant. I'm having Braxton Hicks. I feel horrible. I've puked every day of my pregnancies. And I was like, no, that's. There's no healthcare there. There's no, it's three hours through the mountains.

I mean, no, he was so mad at me that he slept in a different bedroom that night. And wouldn't speak to me and just like all the times before, but I, it didn't mean as much this time or as this time did I went to him and I apologized and said, yes, let's do the thing that you want to do. And we went to Sun Valley for the long Thanksgiving weekend.

And I sat in a hotel room and he skied and went to the bar and had fun. And, and my baby didn't come until she was a week overdue, but, you know, it was probably that event that made me think, yeah, I can't. This isn't going to work. 

[00:32:23] Heather Lowe: The marriage isn't going to work. Like that was a big, okay. What were you recognizing yourself?

Like, this is a bit of a pattern, what he shuts you out as punishment for not getting what he wants. 

[00:32:35] Laurie Bylsma: Yep. 

[00:32:35] Heather Lowe: And then you reunite with apology. Do you take blame? 

[00:32:40] Laurie Bylsma: Yep. 

[00:32:41] Heather Lowe: And then, and you do the thing he wants to do and then it's okay. And it's, what is your definition of, um, like narcissism or narcissists? Is that, is that it?

[00:32:51] Laurie Bylsma: Well, yeah, I think a narcissist, , yeah, I'm not going to say this very eloquently certainly, but they are incredibly selfish without realizing. I mean, I can do selfish things all day long and say, I'm going to be selfish and do X, Y, and then Z. Never in a million years would, would that person.

Actually think not let alone admit to, but it would never cross their mind. It would be actually, I mean, you calling them selfish would be incorrect because they are not being selfish, you know, just period. And the, the one thing that I struggled with through all the years, and that was. 17 years ago, almost 18 years ago, is detaching from that narcissist, the intent of being selfish from just being a selfish human being who can't be otherwise.

I think that maybe is the, there's a, there's something there in that he loved me till the day he died. Oh wow. Wow. Wow. Um, what do you call it? 

[00:34:11] Heather Lowe: Um, . Yeah. In a book. A, a forewarning. A pre, yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. I just, um, foreshadowing, foreshadowing how this story is going to go. 

[00:34:21] Laurie Bylsma: Yeah. Yeah. Um, I think he loved me till the day he died as literally as best as he could and his babies.

Mm-Hmm. . Um, but it was so unhealthy and and bad. 

[00:34:33] Heather Lowe: He didn't know how to love and he only knew, uh, him like himself. Just the Sun Valley request. Considering the conditions with hosting and being, you know, 109 months pregnant. Yes. The lack of empathy for what somebody else's shoes standing in somebody else's shoes.

He's done that considering 

[00:34:53] Laurie Bylsma: no ability to do that. Period. Just no. 

[00:34:56] Heather Lowe: Okay. So you go to Sun Valley and then weeks later you have your baby who came late. But she's adorable and perfect, 

[00:35:02] Laurie Bylsma: adorable and perfect 

[00:35:04] Heather Lowe: like you. 

[00:35:04] Laurie Bylsma: Yes. Yes...so blonde! Yes. . And I loved that time. Um, I loved being a mom and I loved being home with a newborn and my mom was

with us a lot in the beginning, helping and traveling out from Michigan. he stayed home for two, three days, but the reality is. The night she was born, I said, you don't need to stay here on this horrible, whatever they provide a, uh, uh, spouse or whatever to stay in at the hospital is horrible. Right.

And I was like, just go home. And we had a dog and go home and take care of Annie and do the things. And, um, and he went to the bar and, um, it's funny, cause I don't think I ever would have known that. But. Yeah. I, um, I called him cause I had a question. I was filling out her social security number paperwork, and I probably needed his social security number.

And he answered and he was at the bar and I. I mean that I'll never forgive that. I don't know. There's just something like so messed up about that. And then, yeah, yeah. I mean, that's just how it was from that point forward. So, but he told me three months and he told me, well, he came home from the bar one night and I said, he could tell something was wrong and, I said, I was just wondering if maybe you could hang out with the baby one to two nights a week instead of going to the bar.

And he told me that I was trying to take away the most important thing in his life. And he didn't speak to me for a week,

at which point I got down on my knees and begged him to go to the bar. So again, me coming, it was obviously my fault. and being vulnerable and saying, please, please, please, I was wrong to ask you to spend time with us. Like how, yeah, so crazy.

[00:37:24] Heather Lowe: Sounds so similar to my dad. This is just feeling full circle to me.

Like how interesting that like that, that was my dad. So these things are brewing. You're recognizing like this is lonely. 

[00:37:36] Laurie Bylsma: Yeah. 

[00:37:37] Heather Lowe: So, okay. In some ways, this is the life I chose and asked for and wanted and God and other ways, like this is not working. This isn't what I planned. This isn't what I want. But what options did you have?

Because You only plan on getting married once and and raising your kids with that person. Right? So you had another baby. 

[00:38:03] Laurie Bylsma: Yeah, I mean, why not? Um, 

[00:38:07] Heather Lowe: yeah, I totally 

[00:38:10] Laurie Bylsma: 100 percent 100 percent that goes without saying. 

I definitely was lonely. I definitely wasn't a, I lived the days like having fun with my baby.

Um, creating a, a vlog for people at home. This is before social media and everything. Um, and you know, making sure. With the grandmas had lots of access to videos and just having tons of fun and dressing her like a little ball of joy and just everything. 

[00:38:48] Heather Lowe: Did you quit your job? Were you a stay at home mom?

[00:38:50] Laurie Bylsma: I was a stay at home mom for the first year and then I went to work part time for the second year. and there was a point at which, and I don't know exactly when that was, but I wanted another baby so that baby number one would have someone when she went. To add overnights to dad's house, a hundred percent, 

[00:39:15] Heather Lowe: you thought that, 

[00:39:17] Laurie Bylsma: yeah.

And I, 

yeah, I feel bad saying that out loud because I wanted to go, I wanted her with all my heart and I don't want her to hear that,

but a hundred percent, I felt like baby number one needed to. be able to feel like she had someone and she was safe. and you know, we make decisions with the information we have at the time, and we make decisions thinking that we know everything... And with the personality of baby number one, it probably put way too much stress on her as a firstborn girl, trying to take care of everyone, trying to be responsible for everyone, trying to make sure everyone's at school on time, that dad's awake on time, that dad, you know, is, you know, taking care of everyone.

That lunches are packed and outfits are on and teeth are brushed because she became the one responsible for all that. So

that breaks my heart, but, but I still stand by the fact that they had each other. And that was really important for a lot of those years. 

[00:40:36] Heather Lowe: So then what happened? Because you have the, you're still together. 

[00:40:41] Laurie Bylsma: Yeah. 

[00:40:41] Heather Lowe: I can see little, little ones. Yeah. 

[00:40:43] Laurie Bylsma: Baby girl, number two came along and we, for years we had talked after baby number one, we had talked about moving back to Michigan.

Um, we had great friends in Idaho, but it became clear to him and me, obviously, duh, that, um, being back by my family would be really good for probably mostly for me, but, but he was fully on board and it's funny because I actually have an email that I sent to him saying, you're not gonna. You're not going to regret this later.

You're not gonna, I can't remember how I phrased it, but you're not going to regret this later and blame me for the fact that you're stuck in Michigan, are you? And he replied and said, absolutely not. I want this. I still have that because I knew once I filed for divorce, he would say something different.

And it's funny. I still can't delete.

 Yeah. Um, so yeah, it was his idea and I was home with baby number two. So between babies, I took the part time job, but it was also, um, a limited time job. It was working for a special Olympics event. So once the event was over, baby number two came shortly after that. So I was home. She was about six, not six months old yet.

And he was like, I've had it at my job. Let's move to Michigan. And my mom was actually visiting at the time. He walked in the house and said, I'm gonna, I'm gonna quit my job tomorrow. We're, we're going to move home. I walked over to the computer and booked tickets home and started packing up the house the next day.

Um, and. Within a very short period of time, then, um, the girls and I were in Michigan because I was now looking for a job here and, um, I wanted to be a local candidate and, um, he, he actually worked for another two or three months. I can't remember. Um, And then, and before he was done at his job in Boise. So, so we quickly packed things up and got out of there and came home to Michigan.

And, um, it's funny because immediately upon arriving here, my job search was a job search so that I could feel secure enough to file for divorce. he joined us in Michigan in August and got a great job with a big automotive company as a, an attorney in house counsel. And Within a week, he said, what's, he asked me what was wrong.

And I said, well, I want a divorce. And so he, at that time quit his job to save his family. And I, again, got down on my knees and said, please don't quit your job because I knew that there was no saving. Um, and what could be worse to now than be unemployed, you know, and just not, not good. So he, he did quit his job and right at that within a very, like within a day or two, his mom passed away suddenly.

Um, It just things really crumbled, I would say for him, probably from an ego and mental standpoint, and things got really terrible. Um, I was working at this new job. I was very happy and again in a position where it was really valued, appreciated. , And I, I love that in a job. I just love, love, love, love that.

And I also realized I didn't get that at home and work was a very safe place. but I would come home and he was angry and he was sad and he was mad and he was a hero. And I was to recognize that he was a hero because he quit his job and he was a stay at home dad and he was saving his family and, and then it turned into a control where he was creating workouts for me every day.

And planning, my meals, my breakfast, my lunch, my dinner, he was monitoring my phone calls with friends. He was realizing that. A couple of my friends were aware of the fact that I was going to ask for a divorce and that they supported me. And so I had to call some of those people and break up with them.

And he had to be on the phone listening to me break up with them. He put a keystroke tracker on our computer. He put a recording device in my car. He, um, looked at my private messages on my social media. Um, at one point, this kid that I knew, Years and years and years prior met, reached out to me and he wanted to sell my brother,

who's involved in professional athletics, he wanted to sell this stupid product to my brother and wanted to have lunch to talk about it. And I was like, yeah, sure. Okay. I'll, you know, let you know. Well, that was me being inappropriate with another man. Um, he confronted me about that as we were driving down the road.

Yeah. Um, for 4th of July weekend to go to my, uh, very good friend's cottage with our babies in the backseat. And he called me a fucking whore in front of my, I mean, the babies, but coherent, um, I almost threw myself out of the car, One weekend we, uh, one weekend we left the kids with my mom and we were going up to Mackinac Island to celebrate our wedding anniversary.

And on the way there, he pulled out a recording device, um, probably like a, literally a $20 little stupid thing from the grocery store that you, uh, I mean, nobody would buy at this point with electronics the way they are. Um, and he told me that he heard on it. He couldn't sleep the night before, and he was very upset because he heard me say on the phone with my college bestie.

That I gave someone a blow job at work on a desk or a dock. And I burst into laughter because A, I didn't do that. And B, you didn't say that. And it was comical to me. And he became so enraged, pulled over on the side of the expressway. He, I mean, this was on our way to Mackinac Island to celebrate our wedding anniversary.

And he took the device. I said, let's get it professionally. Uh, I don't even know what I'm saying, but you know, professionally analyzed so we can actually have someone tell us what I'm saying. Because I didn't say that. And he threw it while we were moving down the expressway, he threw it into the ditch, so that would not be a possibility.

And then we proceeded to go to Mackinac Island and I was to behave as though everything was perfect and glorious. And we were so in love and celebrating our anniversary. And. Let's hug and kiss and post it on Facebook. Let's hug and post it on Facebook. We look really cute. Let's post it on Facebook. Um, I mean, it was so fake.

It was so abusive and horrible and fake all of it. eventually after all of that, um, it was fall of, I don't even know what year. 2011 and I'd had, uh, um, I was born with a. Little mass on my shoulder. I'd had it truly my whole life. It was no big deal. Sometimes it would bruise and get hard, but I had been taken to physician my whole life, just checking in on it.

And it was nothing. I'm no big deal. Well, I woke up one morning, fall of 2011 and we hadn't, by the way, we moved back to Michigan, fall of 2010, 2011. Um, I woke up in the middle of the night and it was so painful. I could not walk without it hurting because like the, the pressure of my feet walking made my shoulder hurt.

And within a few days, I, and I also kind of had a fever and didn't feel well. Well, a couple of days pass, my mom asked to look at it. I am red halfway down my arm. And it's hot to the touch. And she's like, you need to go to the emergency room. And that's a very long story, but it needed to be removed. It was infected after tests and tests and tests.

And every physician in the ER coming in and saying, um, asking me all the questions and saying, I need to get my boss. And then I got admitted and the head of surgery or plastic surgery came to see me as like, I have removed thousands, hundreds of thousands of cysts. I've never seen anything like this. I don't know what it is.

Anyway, removed in the hospital for five days. I come home from the hospital. I have a wound vac. Um, and. The next morning, he says to me that he doesn't want to take care of me. So I get up, I, I start to leave the bedroom and he says to me, what are you doing? And I said, I'm going to my mom's. She, she actually really wants to take care of me, but he wouldn't let her be involved.

And he just started screaming at me and down the hallway, I saw my little girl playing with her baby sister and she looked down so startled at the yelling and it just broke my heart that, you know, and kids witness a lot. I know they do it, but it's still just killed me. Um, and things really escalated after that.

I mean, he would wake me up in the middle. Well, this whole time we were in Michigan, he'd wake me up in the middle of the night, show me a text that I sent to a coworker telling them they did a good job on their anniversary gift that we had talked about at work or whatever, you know, and, and who is this?

What is this about? And just, you know, So paranoid. And so beside himself all the time. And he chased me through the house in the middle of the night, one night, the baby woke up, he grabbed me. I had bruises on my arms. There's one other bedroom in the house that had a lock on the door. And I would race and try to get there as fast as I possibly could.

and. Inevitably, you know, I mean, I wouldn't make it he in then the next day, apology, apology, apology. I'll never do that again. I love my family so much. I mean, every text, every makeup text, every mean text, every email, I have all of it still because for some reason I feel like I need to still, maybe I might need to prove to someone how horrible this was.

Um, so the shoulder explosion business, uh, led into Christmas. Over the Christmas holiday. Um, we had a babysitter who we were giving a Christmas gift to, and I wrote her a check out of an account that he just had money in, but we weren't using, but he wasn't home and it, long story. But anyway, she was on her way over.

So I wrote her a check for her Christmas card out of this account. A few days later, he called me to the kitchen table where he was looking at the finances and he asked me about the check and I told him, oh, remember you were out with the girls. The babysitter was coming over. I was, you know, we agreed we were going to you know, give her this much for her gift.

And he lost his mind with me. And, I had made a decision at this point. Um, and so I said, do it, do it. I want, cause he was basically pulling his fist back and I said, do it. I need the bruise. to show people why I'm going to leave you. And he, instead of my face, he punched past my ear and punched a hole in the wall.

And I was like, you know what? That's good enough. Thank you. And I went to go change my clothes and he chased me into the bathroom. And, um, he, Was not going to let me leave the house. I mean, there was no way. So I calmed down and I "complied" quote unquote, and I did what I was supposed to do when we went to home Depot to get the kit, to prepare, repair the wall and all the things.

And, um, within a few days, I. Uh, called some family members, my brother's an attorney and so on and so forth. And, um, said I needed help and that they needed to, I needed them to do some things and meet with me at my job instead of that, you know, like I couldn't talk on the phone. I couldn't do emails. I couldn't do texts that all that was being monitored.

I had my. Attorney meet with me at my workplace, um, and essentially prepare all of the work in advance to be able to file. And then with a, with a judge's approval, um, have him served by a police officer while I was leaving the state with my girls. So I was literally packing suitcases. when he wasn't around and putting them back up on the shelf , a just doing a lot of prep work.

 Once the date was set and then I had to meet with my boss at work and say, um, I'm going to escape in the night next week. And I don't know when I'm going to come back. I just remember her practically falling out of her chair, like just in shock, like having no idea. Because again, my work was my happy place.

I was like my true authentic self there and then was living this hellscape at home. So, um. I had a village of people that helped me

and, my mom and my babies. And I just. We're driving out of town and I get a text that he was pulled over and then I get a text that he was being served and then I started getting texts and phone calls from him and it was absolutely awful.

And I had a brother that lived in Pittsburgh at the time and I had permission to go there. and, um, I spent the week there.

Girlfriends met me there. and in some ways we had the time of our lives and the most memorable freedom and love.

And it's funny because sometimes we'll talk about that time and the phone calls that he would make to us and I never would get on the phone, but my friend would. And because he had to, I had to let him talk to the girls every night. And, and, um, I don't even remember those phone calls like I have just. I don't remember a lot, actually, but

when we came home a week later, I had the police at my house because I thought for sure he was going to have committed suicide. And been in the garage, when I opened the garage door and he wasn't, he did a lot of really interesting things during that time. Like he called my attorney and said, Oh, she's changed her mind. She's not going to file we're getting, you know, um, yeah, just a lot. He would, it's just, it was, it was crazy, crazy time. One of the things I quickly realized was that, um, in order for me to have any

control over me and the girls and the situation I had to cut off any talking. It had to be all arrangements were made. Via text, because if we got a talking situation, he would do everything in his power to manipulate things in a certain way. Um, it took me a long time of being incredibly frustrated and being taken advantage of, um, my time, my parenting time, my privacy, my space, everything.

and I don't know where the courage came to do this at the time, um, but I. I finally said you are not to speak to me anymore. You are to only text. And it's interesting cause I've seen friends go through divorces with narcissists since then. And this exact part of it has played out exactly to the T with them as well.

Where boundaries were crossed and crossed and crossed and crossed and crossed and crossed and manipulation was attempted over and over and over. But if you limit it to text and they send something nasty and you, it, you don't have to reply to that. You know, it gives you, it's oddly enough, it's the only time where I would suggest texting for critical communication, but, um, it really, it takes away their power.

Yeah. And then parenting, co parenting through that, uh, , our judge told us that we had to go get co parenting therapy or whatever with our therapist, our marriage counselor, who, by the way, had fired him from marriage counseling. Cause he was so. Unresponsive and terrible and made making promises constantly that he would not fulfill during the week and it was pointless.

But, um, thank goodness. He's still my therapist. So, , we went to to co parenting counseling. And after the first session again, our therapist said don't come back, Brad., You're not willing to. You're not willing to do anything that's being asked of you, so I'm not willing to spend my time with you. So, but yeah, that was difficult.

And it was very clear that he showed the girls disdain toward me toward my mother, my family. and. They talk about it to this day, they would be in the car having a grand time, and then they pull up to my house to be dropped off or whatever, and he'd say, he'd get a stern look on his face, he'd flip a switch, stern face, deep voice.

Please tell your mother I need to speak with her. And, you know, I mean, he, he didn't ever have to say, "your mom's a rancid bitch," but they knew how he felt, you know, it was obviously very clear. yeah, it would. And, and all through those years, he was unemployed. Most of the time he, he never ended up. After he quit that job with the automotive company, he was unemployed for the next, I don't know, two and a half years to three, I don't know.

I mean, it was a long time. And when he went back to work, it was part time and remote. Um, and then that went away and then he got another job part time and remote. yeah, it was for a guy who had the job that he had when I met him that. you know, was part of the appeal and, and the security and all that, that just completely evaporated.

so I don't know, during COVID, early COVID days, my oldest stopped going to his house. She, the stress of it, the unknown of his attitude of what you were going to get his anger, um, if she ever corrected him or, or did act up, he lashed out at her. I have a recording on my phone still of her calling me saying, dad just called me like just sobbing.

She was probably.

12, "dad just called me a bitch," just sobbing her face off. 

She just emotionally could not take it. And so she stopped going to his house

and that was interesting. There was one point at which he said he was going to force her to. And I said, yeah, that's a great idea. You can. He said, he told me I have rights too, I said, you do have rights and you get to make a decision if your rights come before her literal life, because I don't know where she is mentally right now.

I mean, yeah, great exercise your rights, but the consequences of that I don't think you'll be able to live with. So, um, yeah, there were just a lot of big struggles and then.

In 20, I don't know post COVID, I guess. About two, about two years ago, essentially my youngest, um, stopped going to her dad's as well. and, um, there were some accusations made and I don't know what happened or what exactly led to this, but. Of course I will. I would. I'm delighted in having her here full time. Um, and I reached out to him and I said, she's not coming back to your home for now.

I need a couple of things from your house because of course she needed her mascara or whatever. I don't know. Um, and. I went to his home and for the first time he let me in, I'd never been allowed this whole time to, to enter where they lived. Um, and he told me that he loved them with all his heart and that if they were both, he didn't know what he was going to do if they were both rejecting him.

And I said, they both need you and they love you. And. Regardless of where they are or how they feel right now, they need their dad. So don't do anything stupid. And actually asked me for a hug, which is probably the first time we touched each other. I can't even count the years. And it's so fascinating because I, I said, of course, and I hugged him and he was stiff as a board.

You know, I think about you had, and if I got to hug you right now, it would be like soul healing. And this hug from him was like, dead, dead dead, I don't know how else to describe it. And a few weeks later, I don't even know how many, just whatever. Soon, shortly thereafter, I was on a work call, um, still working from home due to COVID and all that.

And leading a staff meeting. And I was seeing on my phone that some messages were popping up. and one of them was from Brad's niece, which we would occasionally like something of each other's or message each other, but very rare. And then the meeting continued. I didn't look at it cause again, it was leading this meeting.

And then I had the team do a round Robin and. I looked down and , my phone was ringing. It was my ex sister in law who I haven't talked to in ages. And it was that moment where it was like, uh, something bad has happened. And I told them why I need to step away. And she said, you need to call.

Brad's brother right now. And I called him and he got on the phone and instantly I knew he's like, I can't find Brad

it didn't take very long. And we both knew, but it probably 24 hours later, we, we had found his body.

Luckily the cops had found his body. Um, he would have never put any of us in a situation of having to find that. Um,

but a few days before that I had received a text from him,

um, and I knew, no, I didn't know anything, let's be real, but I was blown away by the text. Um, it seemed very heartfelt. And I'll read it to you.

" Thank you for being the girls' rock.

[01:07:03] Laurie Bylsma: They are the absolute best kids. So you have my admiration and love for providing them with strength and guidance during this unacceptable shit. Well, my feelings are inconsequential. I feel like a complete failure as a father, which I have tried so hard to be. I still have no idea of what has happened here, but I am horrified by it.

And it makes me want to die. I am not looking for sympathy or support. I just feel completely broken and useless. I am so sorry for all the sadness and pain."

And

for weeks, I. Wondered why he didn't leave us a letter or some sort of message.

And then I think it was his brother who said, Gootch, that is his letter. That was his letter. And

it both gives me some comfort to know in the end that he did. I know he loved all three of us the best he could. I know, and I knew in marriage and after that he had demons, I couldn't begin to comprehend or accept. it also gives me guilt that I got that letter and he didn't die for another, I don't know, I don't know, another week or something.

And I didn't understand it was what it was until much later, so yeah, so now my kids have to live with this. and it's fascinating to see them miss him, but also going from this storytelling of love and missing and we've transferred in two years, we're two years into it. They, they have transferred into telling some pretty realistic stories about dad of pain, and

I don't know how to describe it exactly but realistic is, you know, at first I thought oh my god, is this what it's going to be we're gonna all. You know, in death, he's going to be the best ever. I don't know how much I can put up with, but I did, but I did. Um, and, but now it's, it's different. It's just realistic, which I can appreciate.

And we can laugh and joke about him sort of with him in a sense. Um, and. There's some sort of relief about not having to deal with that unknown, not ever knowing what you're going to get. I, I can see for them that whole managing dad's attitude, , his feelings. I used to see it when they were little a lot, especially out of the older sister, like don't tell Mom something bad about Dad.

Um, Or don't tell, you know, just don't tell Mom we had fun with Dad, or don't tell Mom, Dad got fired from his job or don't, you know, but now it's, it's just a lot more real. And as it turns out, we're all just, you know, perfect parents are not perfect parents. We're all just literally doing what we can.

Right. And he was too, for sure. And now his brother and I are reunited. His sister in law and I are reunited. They were in our wedding party. They were some of our best friends and I completely lost them. And they're back in our lives and they're very important part of our lives. And it's been awesome.

And it's fascinating because his brother

is sometimes the picture of Brad.

Sometimes he is the facial expression of Brad. He's the voice box of Brad. The attitude of Brad or the opinion of Brad, and I can feel myself like uh bristle, but he is a whole human being with love and care and delights and faults and self, uh, awareness and love and caring for my girls.

And it's almost like they have their dad, but healthy, healthier. Healthy in a normal person way, you know, so that has been a blessing and his friends, they have re emerged and that's been magical.

I've even had a couple of really wonderful conversations with them where they've. said, "there's no way that was easy. I can't even imagine what that was like for you." And one of them shared with me that when, when I asked for a divorce, they said, well, Brad, you're at the bar every night. Like, are you surprised?

Um, and it was just. Very endearing to know that people saw

that people you saw probably when I was dating him, right? I mean people saw people always saw yeah, so

the girls and I are making our way in this world and

are finding ways to honor what was cool and healthy about their dad and learn from what wasn't and you know Make fun of the rest.

[01:13:26] Heather Lowe: Thank you for sharing your story, Gootch. I love you so much. 

[01:13:32] Laurie Bylsma: I love you. 

[01:13:33] Heather Lowe: I'm so proud of you for getting out. I think this conversation, your story, your open heart, and your willingness to share, really is a cautionary tale for others too, you know, to recognize relationships that they could be in and how to protect themselves and how to get out and how to heal and how to be responsible for yourself and not controlled by somebody else, regardless of the worst case scenario, right?

Like you still, you heal yourself and you take care of your girls as you are, and you don't manage the rest. 

[01:14:16] Laurie Bylsma: Yeah, 

[01:14:18] Heather Lowe: it's a really big thing to heal from and I watch you do it. I'm watching you do it and to stay connected with his people. I think that's really beautiful for you and the kids. 

[01:14:29] Laurie Bylsma: Yeah, 

yeah, it is.

It's beautiful. 

Yeah, it's been an incredible result of all of this hell. For sure. 

[01:14:40] Heather Lowe: Is there anything that you, if there's a woman listening right now is like, I'm in this, I'm in this relationship, any advice you would give? Let's keep text, not talk. 

[01:14:55] Laurie Bylsma: Um, the one thing that I regret

not understanding earlier is that I could provide myself with the life I wanted without all of that. And I never believed that until I had no choice and I for like, I, I literally was between a rock and a hard place. Um, and I, that's my biggest regret is not, I just didn't know. I'm not, it's not even like I didn't believe it.

It's not like people told me and I didn't believe it. And now I would, my, my comment to any young woman is you can do all the things that you envision for yourself without any of that, you can do it with a man, without a man, with a woman, without a woman, with a bestie, by yourself, like that is the saddest part for me that I never knew.

I never even knew that I didn't believe in myself.

I just. Wish for all young, or women of any age, even your over a hundred year old grandma, that , you have it within yourself, period. And I went from being completely dependent on a man who was abusive to me. And to Being completely financially free. I mean, I had to work my ass off and I had to make lots of sacrifices.

I'm not, this is not like some self help, you know, you can do, you can be a, the queen of the professional universe too. This is, uh, whatever it is, you, you, you have it within yourself. Um, and you just got to find it.

And if only I had believed in myself earlier, imagine what I could have avoided. I just, and of course, just like every other woman in a similar situation, I wouldn't change anything because I wouldn't have my girls. Of course, you know, at this point, I feel like the luckiest person in the world with my two amazing girls and my dog at my side and, um, living the life that I want.

Um, but. Why did it take me so long to realize that I had that within me that that makes me sad because I did, I did not think that when I was brushing my teeth back in whatever year that was, um, and puking out of, from stress, why did I not know that I could just do this and create my own joy and happiness?

My favorite thing to say is demand your happiness. And everyone should be working on that, I feel like, not in a creepy, narcissistic way, 

[01:18:12] Heather Lowe: your daughters are watching you, you've changed the trajectory of your generations and needing a man. 

[01:18:20] Laurie Bylsma: Yeah. Absolutely. 

[01:18:21] Heather Lowe: You're watching you do it yourself. So, so what?

You were, you know, a decade or so late to the party, you figured out, you did figure it out. You know what? My grandma figured it out too. She outlived two husbands and a long term boyfriend. She said, no, I'm not, I don't want to do anybody else's laundry. I'm not, I don't want to live with anybody else. Yeah.

Yeah. Perfect. 

[01:18:52] Laurie Bylsma: Yeah. You don't want the seat left up. Guess what? It's 

[01:18:57] Heather Lowe: a, it's a, it's a beautiful love story. And it's a love story of you to you from you with love that your daughters are watching that. So thank you so much. I love you. 

[01:19:09] Laurie Bylsma: I love you too, head. 

[01:19:13] Heather Lowe: And that's a wrap for today's episode of the Peripeteia podcast, a talk show for women. Join us in the insider community with a seven day free trial to continue the conversation at ditchthedrink. com. And don't forget to download my free ebook, the 12 truth to change your life. Do it for the plot. We'll see you in the next episode.

Lots of love.