Perip. Ep. 4 - Deb Masner on Friendship
Heather Lowe: Hi, babes. Listen up. You landed here at the Peripeteia podcast, and I'm so glad to have you enjoy these real girl talk conversations about the things that matter. From the ordinary to the extraordinary, and every plot twist in between, I welcome you. Life has a way of throwing us curveballs, and these are the stories of female resilience while navigating change with newfound purpose.
This is Peripatea. I'm so glad you're here. Let's embark on this journey together. Here we go!
How are you coming in today?
Deb Masner: I'm coming in good.
I'm, I was just thinking to myself, like, I am so glad I don't have a migraine.
Heather Lowe: Oh, I know.
Deb Masner: Those were days of my, so I feel like, okay, I'm back. I'm productive. I have a productive day today. So I'm coming in good. How about you?
Heather Lowe: Good. I'm excited because, well, I'm overwhelmed, excited because I am leaving after work tonight for an overnight and a day in Michigan with some friends.
Deb Masner: Who are these friends, then?
Heather Lowe: These are friends. So it's kind of funny because I call them my sober friends. And so my other friends go, well, what do you call us?
Like, speaking of friends, speaking of friendship, our topic here, and I, like, my drunk friends, you know, these are my sober friends, and these are, like, my drunk friends, you know. So it's kind of funny. But these are girls that I met. Which, gosh, I cannot wait to get into our conversation. , by going on a sober retreat.
Deb Masner: Oh, yes.
Heather Lowe: And now they've become some of the best friends I could ever have. So it's pretty cool.
Deb Masner: That's awesome.
Heather Lowe: I wanted to start with our friendship. I wanted to start, like, backwards, kind of, about how we became friends. And then we can go from there and talking about friendship and friendship through the ages and gaining friends and losing friends and the whole tricky situation when it comes to women and friendship.
, first of all, Deb, so I started following you on Instagram, the alcohol tipping point. Um, somehow we started following each other and I I feel like anybody who's a friend of mine, I have a little bit of a crush on.
Heather Lowe: There's something that I love or respect or admire about them. And I felt that with you, one, because I felt like you were really smart. I knew you were a nurse and I respected that. All my college roommates were nurses and I was a social work major, not smart enough to be a nurse. So I love nurses, but also was a healthcare recruiter and always in healthcare, worked in hospitals, um, huge fan of nurses.
And then you had a sense of humor. And so I, that matters so much to me. So I loved your sense of humor. I could see that we just clicked. And so we started maybe commenting on each other, maybe started, you know, like, yeah, just sliding into DMS, you know, taking it, like getting a little bit from a like to a comment, to a, to a message or whatever.
to maybe like a Zoom call or getting to know each other more one on one. But you said something to me one time. You said, I just really like you. And that was music to my ears. It was like, of course, that's exactly what anybody wants to know. And I thought, that's a nice thing anyone's ever said to me. I'm going to link arms with this person, bring her closer, and we got to be friends.
So I really felt like it was you that did that. And I'm forever grateful. But why don't you share who you really are? And, um, and your recollection of our, our meeting.
Deb Masner: who I really am. I'm really the person behind alcohol tipping points.
Heather Lowe: I'm really a nurse and I'm really not that funny.
Deb Masner: Right. Yeah, so I'm just, um, I think I'm just like a really basic person who lives in Boise, Idaho, like your typical suburban mom, nurse, wife.
all of that good stuff. I just, I'm pretty down to earth and ordinary. And so I, I think it's funny. Like I, I looked at you and your account and just like, Oh wow, she's so successful. She's, she's funny. She's someone I would want to be friends with is how I felt. Like no matter what, even like in my drinking days, I'm like, I would be friends with Heather.
And then now that we're both sober and have all this in common of having a business. It's having our own online thing because that's a whole unique set of circumstances. But you also have like teenage daughters, you've been married forever, you've been in health care and in your own way. So I just was like, this girl's my girl.
Heather Lowe: We have a lot. We have a lot in common and we have a lot of differences. It's sort of perfect. We have like, I mean, I think in regards to friendship, , there are things that can immediately bond people like attract or repel, right? So some things that are immediately bonding, well, one for us, the sober coaching.
world. Not everybody in our real life understands that or knows the players or knows the game or knows the, um, the landscape and what that looks like. And we do, so we can support each other as women in business and as sober coaches. And that's a very unique thing that connects us. And then mom of two girls.
I mean, I love that we get it right. We totally get it. And then sobriety sobriety in itself is a huge connector and it's an unspoken bond between you and anyone, if they look like you or not, it's just that automatic, like respect and admiration for somebody who's overcome something. you know what that is, because so have you, right?
So there's a real glue there that's stronger than drinking, than people that drink. I mean, I used to look for the drinkers, right? That's why you were texting me, because you knew we would have been the drinkers together, for sure.
Deb Masner: Yeah. When we were talking about doing this podcast, I was thinking about like, what do we look for in a friend?
And what did I used to look for? And On my list of like, oh, I want them to be funny, but like, number one or two on my list before was, do they drink?
Like, that was my, one of my top requirements for a friend. And man, just looking back now, I'm like, wow, I really missed out on some amazing people, some amazing friendships.
And so to see it change and evolve. I mean, our friendships changed so much throughout our lives, but now this additional like change of, of being sober and navigating friendships, like that's, that's different as well. It's all, it's all been different throughout my life. Friendships have.
Heather Lowe: Yeah. Let's talk about that a little bit.
First of all. Um, I wouldn't know how to be some friends with somebody who didn't drink as a drinker, like that would make me really uncomfortable. I would be very weirded out. I definitely like had no understanding for people. Why wouldn't you drink and how would you have fun? Like, I mean, No, that's a no for me as a drinker and as a sober person, of course, that has completely changed, but we're meant to change and our friendships are meant to change and our values change like that's evolution.
That's growth. It's a really positive thing, but I want to mention in the friendship world. It's hard because we have this idea of BFF, best friend forever, that we're supposed to have somebody who's in our life, our day one, our OG, our person, our lobster, right? There's all these, our mate for life, our girlfriend mate for life.
That we're supposed, like this idea, this story, maybe it's in my mind, but I think it's out there, or even a pack of people, even a squad of people, right, that are tribe, that are there for the long haul, and I know I have felt rejected and disappointed when that hasn't happened for me, because for a long time I did have that, and actually I was a gripper to friendships, like, my first friend, Was a year older than me and we played all day every day and I was four years old and she was five years old.
You know what that bitch did? She went to kindergarten. How dare her? Now what was I supposed to do all day? She was at kindergarten and I was not and it broke my heart because now our friendship changed. She wasn't there to play with all day. Then she made new kindergarten friends, right? And immediately my heart was broke and I kind of have kept that my whole life. Like I'm a gripper, you know, and so it's been hard to have people in and out or leaving me in this idea that they're supposed to be forever. How does that sit with you?
Deb Masner: Wow, I'm just, I can't believe you remembered that from being four. That's pretty amazing.
That's like a core memory for you.
think that I've come to terms with it, the changing friendships. I think I've always kind of been a bit of a chameleon, too. I was thinking about like, I kind of do well on the fringe of groups. And so that has helped me kind of like, evolve my friendships a bit, um, from, like, who I hung out with in elementary school, like you were talking about.
We, we also moved from Lewiston, Idaho to Moscow, Idaho when I was in third grade. So that was my first kind of, like, severing of friendships And I think that kind of helped in a ways because it was like, Oh, now, now it's time to make new friends. What does this look like? And I felt like each kind of transition from like elementary to junior high, it was like, Oh, , now the friends are changing again.
And then high school, Oh, they're changing again. And then college and then mom friends and work friends. It was like, I, I think that I. Kind of compartmentalize them a little bit more that it sounds like you're a gripper and you want them for life. And I'm kind of like, I'm okay with the different compartments of friends.
Does that make sense?
Heather Lowe: It makes so much sense. And I think it's really healthy. I think everybody listening to this should take note, including me, because , there is a need for different kinds of friends. Not everybody is the ride or die, right? And not everybody is for the whole lifetime. There's friends that are there for a reason or a season and that's okay.
And it's important to have all those different compartments of friends. And for me, I just sink my claws in people. And I'm not a chameleon. That's where we're different. I'm the head of the pack. I'm the bossiest boss. I mean, when I look at the Peanuts characters, I'm Lucy. I mean, who are you? You're probably Charlie Brown, right?
Maybe Peppermint Patty?
Deb Masner: I think I'm kind of Snoopy.
Heather Lowe: Yeah, you're Snoopy. When I look at the Muppets, I'm Miss Piggy. You know, you're Kermy. I love this. Yeah, um, Winnie the Pooh, you might be Piglet, right? I am Tigger! So it's like We need all kinds of people and all kinds of friendships, but being that kind of, I'm an, Aries, I don't know, first day of the first sign, just like, yeah, sink my claws into people and expect them to like, be there forever.
And it has definitely broken my heart when they've left for whatever reason, like some was obviously I thought my high school friends, , my high school friends were also my elementary school friends. So I thought they were going to be there forever and going to college. I made new friends and some of my high school friends were actually hurt by that, but our friendship had to change.
Cause we didn't go to the same college. Of course I was gonna, you know, fill with new friends, but, and then yeah, to early adulthood and motherhood. And work, but it has been, I've put everybody in the same category. So I think it's really healthy to recognize different kinds of friends, different types of relationships, and they can help you in different ways.
Deb Masner: Well, that's interesting that, yeah, I definitely see you as more of a leader. and leader of the pack. I'm more of a joiner.
so that is interesting, like, how you viewed your friendships versus how I have. Now, that's not to say I have had some friendships fade out that, like, really broke my heart. Uh, but I think that I've dealt with that now, later.
And it didn't have anything to do with sobriety or anything like that. It was just life changes. They got busy. I got busy. I still kind of miss them. There's still people I could reach out to though, and it would be fine. There wasn't like a breakup.
Heather Lowe: A fade out. Just a fade out.
Deb Masner: It was a fade out.
Heather Lowe: Yeah.
I've had both. I've had, I've had cut off, you know, I've had like a situation or an argument or something that was just cut off both ways, me and others. And I've had the slow fade out, which is just, It slowly starts to end until there's nothing, So if you think about, I know there's a saying that says like, you are like the, the five people you spend the most time with or something like that.
If you think about those friends, uh, I'd love to know a little bit about like who they are and what that means to you and how that has changed over the years.
Deb Masner: Yeah, well, I would put you as one of those five people now, because one really cool thing that Heather and I have done, like, we have never met in real life.
Heather Lowe: Coming soon, actually. And now, and now, a word from our sponsor. I'm just kidding. But we are going to meet live at Zero Proof Experiences Sober in the City in Seattle this September. So Everybody, if you wanna be our friend and meet us live, join us there. But yeah. Yeah.
Deb Masner: And share.
Heather Lowe: Share.
Deb Masner: And like you said, like I have made some of the most meaningful friendships at sober retreats.
Within my sober groups. I've seen other, the other women like making friends and connections with each other, which I think is so amazing. Um. , but to our, to your question, like about the five reflections of yourself. So I say I put you in that category because we are like on Marco Polo all the time, just chatting back and forth.
I think I also want to point it out for people who are listening, because I think a lot of people, their definition of friendship is like, okay, we're in person, we hang out, we go get coffee, we, you know, but you can make a really meaningful connection online.
You know, that came out of COVID, right, where we all really got more connected with technology. We also got very disconnected. I do like in real life things, but it is possible to also have a real connection online. So yeah, I would say you, I would put you in that category. I have some like, I guess, ride or die people that I know I could always reach out to at any point.
I have a friend I went to nursing school with, um, \, I could reach out to her anytime. ,
Heather Lowe: Is she local?
Deb Masner: She actually lives in my neighborhood.
Heather Lowe: Okay. So do you see each other regularly?
Deb Masner: No, no, not as much.
Heather Lowe: Yeah. Okay. How often do you get together and or connect? Is it like quarterly or twice a year and you just know you're there
Deb Masner: Like twice a year?
I would say in. I mean, when she first moved into the neighborhood, it was like, Oh, my God, my bestie's here. Yay. But I was also drinking really heavily.\ But now, no, not as much. To be honest, like, I, I'm not that social. I always look at what you're doing in your life, Heather, and like, it seems like you're always going out, you have all these events, all that, you have this friends group, you're going to this tomorrow, right?
Or Thursday?
Yeah.
Today! Jesus. Yeah. Yeah. Like you're so social. And that's why I sent you that, that meme that Mel Robbins had posted about like, all the people I want to, I would want to hang out with are sitting home on their couches too. Or what was it? She said.
Heather Lowe: Totally. I get that. So that's what I want to say.
Like there are some people, and I have these people too, that know me very, very well, have known me for decades. And I. I could count on them. Like you said, um, Mel Robbins also did a friendship podcast and she called it your 4am call friends, but , she said people that you could call at 4am just to talk, if you were feeling lonely.
And I'm sorry, do not call me to talk at 4am if you are lonely. Like, you can call me for an emergency and I will be there, but if you are feeling lonely, let's talk about it at 9am the next day.
Deb Masner: It's hilarious.
Heather Lowe: I would never call anybody to say like, Can we talk? I'm feeling lonely right now at 4am. I would be like, Are you awake?
It's time for coffee. Like, you know, maybe after six or seven or eight.
Deb Masner: That's so funny. My sister would, though. She definitely would.
Heather Lowe: She would call you to say, I'm lonely, and you would answer?
Deb Masner: Well, she gets up super early and she doesn't care that I don't. Like, my sister now is one of my best friends.
Heather Lowe: Yeah, that's what I was going to say. My best friends are, my mom is my best friend. My daughters are my best friend. And my mom's best friends are her five sisters. So, like, this is the other, like, illusion we have out there is that people have all these friends and you might be seeing what you don't have.
And my mom, let's say, doesn't have friends, but she has five sisters that she's very, very close to. So, whenever she says, Something about friends. I'm like, Mom, you've got the pot of gold. Like you, you have all the social life you need in those five women right there built in. Right. And for me, I question sometimes I have insecurities about friendships or this or that.
But like, I was blessed with a mom that I'm so, so close to. She's my first call. She's my first call person. It's my mom. She would be awake at four a. m. So that would be fine. You know what I mean? So yeah, , there is that, that your family can be your friends and it's cool when that happens.
I actually, my, um, my sister and my brother in law are some of our best friends, and when you said that meme of like, everybody I want to meet is also staying at home, avoiding everything. I love to go out. I'm very extroverted, obviously all of that. But also through sobriety, my social circles changed and I didn't want to do the thing.
I used to drink to tolerate situations, social situations I didn't want to be in. And so my husband doesn't drink around me, so we don't drink. So going out for a drinking activity. is not going to give us the same, you know, , pleasure, joy, excitement that it used to. And I don't, actually, I don't even think it used to.
I think I always felt uncomfortable in those situations and that's why I drank. But it at least numbed, took the edge off my anxiety. And now the good news is I just don't go. I just don't have to go. In fact, there was a big party in our town where I think everybody was invited. Everybody I know, everybody I'm friends with, was invited and went.
And we weren't invited, and I was so grateful, so happy that I didn't have to go.
Deb Masner: Well, that's good. You had more JOMO.
Heather Lowe: Yeah, I was like, thank God, because how would I go, or how would I turn it down? I feel bad. You know, like, um, but also, I really, really, really don't want to be there. So just, what a blessing to not be invited, is how I felt.
But my husband and I, our kids now, busy, they've got their own license, they're out and about on the weekends, and we're sitting at, like, the excuse used to be we gotta drive the kids around, or we, you know, we've got kids activities. Well now we don't. And also I think with raising kids, , our social life was put on hold, so we've, We've grown apart from people just because there hasn't been time with running the kids around.
Well, now the kids are running themselves around and my husband and I are bored sitting at home, right? And we're like, we actually don't really have any friends. We really don't have that. Like our one favorite couple is busy this weekend. So what are we going to do? You know? So we're in that phase of moving towards empty nesting kind of,
Deb Masner: yeah, would you say, like, your husband's one of your best friends?
Heather Lowe: Definitely.
Deb Masner: Yeah.
Heather Lowe: Yeah, definitely. But he's not a girlfriend. You know what I mean?
Deb Masner: Yes. It's so, so different, isn't it?
Heather Lowe: Mm hmm.
Deb Masner: Yeah. I, I feel
Heather Lowe: like the same things and we have great conversation and stuff, but also he's just not a
Deb Masner: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, my husband just doesn't get me sometimes he doesn't get it. And I think fi finding people that get it, that get you, especially like in the sober world like it is so. comforting Cause I think we just want to be seen and authentic and accepted for who we are. And I was going to ask you, like, what, what do you look for in a friend?
Heather Lowe: Well, like a good time. Somebody who's funny, sense of humor. Like I said, like, I don't know, I was class clown in high school. Like it is. And that's why sobriety was scary to me because I have to be having a, I, I mean, life isn't just a party or anything, but like. I love funny people. People that can make me laugh.
I have a lot of energy, a lot of enthusiasm. I love to laugh. . Like, I love people that are adventurous and say yes to things. Just people that are like, Debbie Downers or complaining all the time or looking at the worst of things or very serious people. I just, it's hard for me because I really like to laugh and have fun.
And the more ridiculous, like the happier, the harder I laugh and the more ridiculous it is. And when somebody can make me laugh, like when you, when you say like, you got to get it, like a sense of humor, you got to get it. Like when you're sending the memes that, you know, the other person's gonna get. Like to me, that is super, super important, but also our friendship, which we were talking about, which a lot was created now on Marco Polo, which we check in all day long sometimes.
And sometimes a day or two goes by, but we're, we very much become like daily. Check in friends and it moved to a different level though. Recently, I felt we're like gotten to know each other, like, you know, seeing each other in different environments, sharing a little more about our day , sharing a little bit about our history.
But very recently. When I was visiting my mom, I had a, like a emotional situation and you help, you help me walk through that. And I felt like that took our friendship to a different level because I was very vulnerable with you and sharing something that I hadn't shared before and sharing it while it was in process versus.
all wrapped up with a bow, right? And it, it was, there was no mask of pretending to be something or pretending to have it all together. It was like, this is something I'm actually struggling with right now. And you helped me walk through that. And that's how you get intimate with somebody. That's how you form a deeper bond, I think, is by letting them help you.
And sharing not just your bright, sunny side, but your reality, your realness and having accepting help, you know, accepting help from somebody. So I felt like that took us to a, to a deeper level .
Deb Masner: Yeah. And I feel safe with you too. And maybe it is the Marco, maybe part of it is we don't live in the same.
city. We don't see each other day to day. Like there's kind of some safety there too. Like, Oh, I could tell her anything and then I can pop away.
Heather Lowe: Right. I'm not going to, see you at the barbecue on Friday and hold you to it. Right.
Deb Masner: Exactly. Yeah. So it's so interesting. It's just a different dynamic to friendships, but I think that's important too.
Like just to have flexible definitions of, of people in your life that support you, what a friend looks like, what you look for in a friend, how you want to show up as a friend, all of that.
Heather Lowe: How do you show up as a friend? Do you have like a friendship love language?
Deb Masner: Ooh, that's a good question. Probably quality time, and I say that even though I don't always get to spend time with people, but I want to.
Heather Lowe: Like, quality time from the comfort of my couch at home.
Deb Masner: But sometimes even just conversations are quality time. Like how you're spending your time together. So quality versus quantity, I guess, would be a better way. of putting it. I don't like small talk. I think that's also why going to parties now is awkward. Like, how are your kids? How's the weather? You know what I mean?
Like, I think that sobriety was a fast track to big, bigger conversations, bigger, deeper conversations.
And that is important to me. I think just, yeah. So I guess how I show up for, as a friend, I hope, is that I'm, I will accept you however you show up. I'm non judgmental. I'm here to listen, to help if needed.
Um, so I think that's it. I hope that that's how I show up as a friend.
Heather Lowe: Oh, I love you for that because it doesn't, like, I've said this, this happens in new friendship too. Like I'll say something cause I'm impulsive and, um, I had a friend once tell me I'm a blurter. So I'm somebody who things fly out of my mouth before I think about them.
Right. And so I say all sorts of things. Some might be true and some might change when the wind blows a different way. But then I felt like. Oh, I shouldn't have said that, or you're gonna think this about me, or you're gonna think that about me, you know what I mean, or I talk too much about this, because then I felt vulnerable and exposed if I've shared too much in a new friendship, and that person's not ready for it, or that person doesn't know enough about me.
They don't know enough positive things to then have me share this, let's say, negative thing, and then they're going to think that's all I am . And then I'm going to make up stories in my mind. The story that we all have is, oh my god, somebody's mad at me or somebody hates me. Right, that could be like, the worst case scenario, which is of course, often.
I look for evidence about why people don't like me, right? Like, I'm working on that, of course. But I think it's a natural insecurity that we have, or I share too much. Being a Miss Piggy, I mean, it's a too much kind of person. So, of course, I am always sharing too much. And you are somebody who says, that's okay.
And I know you're not going to hold me to it. Anyways, because you're Snoopy. I'm going to come back the next day and have a different thought about that. And it's all going to be fine. And I think you look for the good and you see the good and you remind, , me and probably your other friends of the good, very nonjudgmental.
And I'm certain you're like that as a coach too.
Deb Masner: Well, yeah. And I, I don't think there's a line you could, you could never share too much with me. You could even tell me about your daily bowel movements. I'm like, I'm here for it. Tell me.
Heather Lowe: Cause you like me
Deb Masner: because that's the nurse. That's the nurse in me.
When we start.
Heather Lowe: Yeah,
Deb Masner: I could. Yeah, there's never TMI.
Heather Lowe: Yeah. Okay. So isn't that lovely to when you know you're with somebody that you could you couldn't overshare or that would be there for all of it because they're interested in you because they're interested in you and excited about you and they want to know about your life.
That's really sweet.
Deb Masner: Yeah,
Heather Lowe: that's really sweet. One thing that's cool that I want to tell everyone is so I've had Like 40 year friendships. I am very lucky that I was from a small town and the people that I literally knew in preschool continue to be, my friends are still my friends today. Um, true story.
I've got a handful. of people that I'm very, very close to. My whole grade, really, were still pretty tight. Um, so that's why it was hard for me when I ditched the drink to find new sober people. I didn't think I needed new friends because I already had all these friends, right?
And I didn't want to be a weird sober person myself, so why would I want to hang out with the weird sober people, right?
And so I was very resistive. I was very hesitant, but I have found these new people and there is this new bond and it is really beautiful and there is fade away and there is cut off from other relationships. And I think like a garden, we have to prune. Sometimes we have to cut off and we got to prune our, um, we got to cut back, you know, we got to cut back on some friendships and some relationships so we can make room for growth and for, for new.
And I've become a more interesting person by being friends with new kinds of people like you, a gal from Idaho, right? Like, I didn't have a friend from Idaho before this. And in those new friendships, it's really fun to get to know people backwards. Like, in my childhood, people know my grandparents and where I grew up, and that I won the spelling bee, or I got to the top of the rope in gym, or that I was very good at, that I was a pom pom girl, or I dated so and so, or party girl.
Like, I never had to tell them anything because we grew up and they always knew everything about me, including all my aunts and uncles. I was a fourth generation to graduate from my high school, I'd say I'm a pretty big deal around there, like, like, so people just knew me, but in getting to know new people, we're getting, it's like, I don't know when their birthday is, or what they like on their pizza, or how they take their coffee, or who their first kiss was, or, like, I'm learning these things backwards in my new friendships, and it's been really fun, it's been really fun to get to know people backwards, and we're doing that.
With each other, like, it just comes up, like, oh, tell me about your mom, or tell me about your dad's upbringing, or, or whatever it is. So, there is something cool to that.
Deb Masner: Yeah, what a good point, what a good way to look at it, too. And how special that you've had those friendships for so long. I mean, clearly that means a lot to you, like, loyalty is probably one of your top values, would you say?
Heather Lowe: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think that's why, I just assume everybody would be there for my whole life once they're in they're in, right? Yeah, because my once my heart is open to somebody it's like I carry them with me. I value that so much But there is something beautiful about letting go do and also I forced my friendship down people's throats I mean I've demanded Us to stay close sometimes to a fault where it's like if you could just let it go , it'll drop.
But it's like, well, it takes two to hold something up. So maybe just drop your end of the rope. It's okay.
Deb Masner: Yeah, but I can see how it's heartbreaking. I mean, because our friendships are like another kind of love that we have and And especially if someone's pulling away before you are, or if, if you have like an actual friend breakup, I mean, that can be so devastating.
I remember my daughter in 10th grade, which was the start of her high school, like, her best friend broke up with her. Her best friend was like, I think you're kind of holding me back, , I want to like meet other people. I mean, it was like a breakup and it, it was one of the hardest things she ever went through.
And it was so heartbreaking. And she really grieved the loss of that friend. And so I think it's okay to grieve the loss of your friends, because I know you've had some, some relationships like that, that have, maybe it wasn't an outright breakup, but you lost those friends, and that is definitely something to grieve about.
Heather Lowe: Yeah, that's such a good point, grief and friendships, because one, we don't have language for it. When there's a divorce, Or a separation, we have language for it, but often, well, in my case, even my friends have been in my life longer than my spouse and I've been married for like 23 years, right? So these people that have been in your life and a girlfriend, especially who you relied upon, like we already mentioned for all these things that you don't go to your spouse for.
Right. For all to be a source of support and care and concern and affirmation and all these ways. There's not a word for the breakup like there is divorce and there's not a public acknowledgement of that sort of grief of loss. And there is if the person dies or passes away. Right. I've also lost a lot.
I've lost a lot of friends due to. Um, like tragedy or illness or accident, but there's, there's a word for that, but there's not a word for when they're living, but the relationship is. It's over.
Deb Masner: Yeah. And then you feel like there must be something wrong with you.
Heather Lowe: Yeah.
Deb Masner: Because there's not a lot of language out there about that, and not a lot of people talk about it, but it, I think it does happen.
I think a lot of women and men, you know, are hurting because of these lost relationships.
Heather Lowe: I think so too. And a lot of it is, I would imagine, misunderstandings too. And I know, I can't blame everybody in my life because the truth is as a drinker, like, I don't know what kind of friend I was. I was in my own head.
Struggling with my own things. Um, I pride myself on being a good friend. Friendship is really important to me. I was also an only child. I was born an only child, so I think that's the other thing. Um, eventually my parents remarried and I have half siblings that are 10 and 12 years younger than me, and I have a stepsister.
But for most of my life, I was an only child. So I found. sisters for myself. I, when I got in with somebody, I got in with them. And after the friend that left me to go to kindergarten, I made another friend. Now this one was a year younger than me. So ha ha, I was going to be the one to go. I was, I was, Brilliant.
I was going to be the one to go off and do better things, but she was an only child. And so it was perfect because I got to go on all her vacations. I got to be her plus one. We got to be each other's plus one for everything because the parents would want a play date or a playmate. And it always got to be me.
And so, I think that's why I've clung to people like family almost is just an attempt to create my own , but you have siblings. You've\ got a brother and a sister, right?
Deb Masner: I do. I do. Um, it, but it makes so much sense what you're saying. And my niece is an only child. She's, um, now a high school teacher, but I could see her really
hang on to friendships. Friendships are so important to her and she wanted to, like, I can see the loneliness that came from being an only child and the wanting to be with like minded people.
,
and then it was a hard transition for her after college, which I think it is for a lot of people after, because college is so social.
So it's, it's finally the end of all this social young peer to peer interaction. Now you're out in the real world and you're no longer with your friends. You're working now and and that's that's a huge transition. Um, yeah. So I think it makes sense that you being an only child might be a little lonely.
And then the loneliness thing, too, like that, that comes up again and again, especially as we get older, like, people are lonely. And they are looking for friendships and they are looking for meaningful connections. And a lot of people are drinking because they're lonely. I mean, how many times have you heard people say like, well, red wine was my best friend.
Heather Lowe: For sure.
Deb Masner: Drinking is my friend. Yeah. So I think there's a huge connection there.
Heather Lowe: Absolutely. You read my mind because as you were talking, I was thinking like loneliness is an epidemic. It really, really is. And I think even people come to me for coaching support because they simply want to witness to their life sometimes, right?
Deb Masner: Yeah.
Heather Lowe: They want someone to say congratulations and look what I did this week and hear, hear me and here's my struggle. they're, , women like me, strong, independent women who think we don't need any help or, or anybody, or we're taking care of everybody else. They're caregivers, they're moms of kids with special needs.
They're sandwich generation taking care of their parents. They're, they've got big jobs. They're trying to hold it all together, but they need someone to see them. And it's worth it, you know, just to get a coach, to have a relationship of somebody who sees them because we all want to be seen, but the only child is the thing is like a sense of belonging too, like a role that you play.
And that's built in. If you have a family, like my mom is number two of five girls. So she's the second girl and there's all these things. And I've had to create that for myself. Like I have a weekly card club now we play Euchre. So there's four women. And it's funny. We all have a role of who we are, right?
Like . We've got the funny hippie gal and we've got the practical gal, you know, we've got the woo woo kind of gal and we've got me, the boss who, who's competitive and wants to win. So like, and it just, it plays out and it's you can have a one on one friendship that matters, and I think your 4 a.
m. phone call, your, your nursing school friend, she's that person, and that's an individual friendship, and then we have like a group of people, and that is like my car clubber for you. It could be who you are in your family, what role you get to play. And that gives a sense of belonging, I think, to something even bigger, that you belong in this group and you have a spot and a role to play.
I think that's really helpful and healing for people.
Deb Masner: Yes. I think such a good word, belonging, and such like a core feeling that we want. And I think that's partly why it's hard to change our drinking if, if we are belonging to like a drinking group and now we're different, even if it, even drink, even if drinking is not your thing, if you have something else that you struggle with, and usually we hide it, like we do want to present our best self, we don't tell our friends always what's really going on.
You know, we, we purposefully put our best self out there and because it, it is hard to share that we're struggling, like you said, it's hard to ask for help. Um, but yeah, just going back to that belonging, being one of those core values that we all want throughout our lives.
Heather Lowe: Yeah, so it goes against the grain to quit drinking because alcohol is the automatic connector.
Like we're doing shots, we're sharing this bottle of wine around the table. We're all grabbing a cold brew and then going to sit on the deck or whatever it is we're doing. We are a species that wants to belong and needs to belong and has to have belonging for survival. And when alcohol is the glue, and it is for all of us, we've chosen groups like that because we were drinkers ourselves, right?
And then we are purposely putting ourself on the outs. It's very counterintuitive. And it's like, now we don't do that belonging thing. We don't do that thing that connects. We're putting ourselves on the outside. On purpose, intentionally, we're choosing that and it goes against everything that comes natural for us.
So that's why it's really, really hard to quit drinking and then to go back in those social situations and expect yourself to not have feelings about that, right? To not feel so stressed out that you want to drink and to calm down those feelings of stress because you've just chosen to put yourself on the outs.
Deb Masner: Yeah, which going back to loneliness, you don't have to be alone to feel lonely. So a lot of people feel lonely in a group of drinkers, you know, if you're trying not to drink. How do you deal with loneliness
Heather Lowe: Yeah, so and drinking isolates us too. It takes us further and further. So, um, I think my loneliness started.
I think I thought I was friends with people, but I was drinking. And in fact, people were noticing. I had a friend who asked me once, like, well, are you happy? And I was so offended that she asked that because, you Even though I was drowning in my own drinking and I was miserable in my job and I was full of grief and shame and very clearly not happy, I was like, how dare she?
Like, she wishes she had everything I have. Like, how couldn't I be happy? I have this perfect house, this perfect spouse, these perfect kids, this very impressive job title. Like, I am doing great. How dare you ask me that? Right? And now I'm like, I was in denial. I was absolutely miserable, but it was my protection to say everything was okay.
I was okay. I had to keep merging to I was okay. Because if I didn't, I would crumble. And what was the options for me? Right? Like, I didn't have time for a breakdown. I couldn't see how my life would continue if I surrendered in any way. I was just trying to keep up and I was so full of shame that I just had to keep saying everything's okay, even though it wasn't.
So I wasn't being honest in my friendships and I was walking around with a secret. The secret was, a lot of secrets probably, but one was, I'm terrified that I drink too much and I don't know how to quit. I don't really want this to be a real problem for me. How do I hide that?
Deb Masner: And then how do you overcome that?
Like, how do you, how do you tell your friends? How do you tell someone else?
Heather Lowe: You know what, when I first did, well, first I just fell to my knees to my husband and said, I need help and this is it. You know, I, I, and that, and that was the first time I did that. After I, I had gone three years with on off drinking.
My last day one, I just really surrendered and asked for help, which I had never done. So that was different with my friends. It was very interesting. I was spending the most time with people that I drank the most with because I was at the end of my drinking, right? There was two friends in particular I sat down with on that day one and cried and said, I'm so sorry.
I have to quit drinking. I'm so sorry. I can't do this anymore. It was like the saddest thing that I wouldn't be a drinking buddy with them, that I wouldn't be able to drink and that this was going to change our friendship and everything. Um, it was very morbid. It was very sad. I was just crying and I was so sorry that I couldn't be a better drinker or hang in there with them in the drinking, right?
Um, and looking back, that's so funny because it was the healthiest, best possible decision. It was the only most beautiful option for me and it is something to celebrate so big and hard. It's nothing to cry about quitting drinking. I mean, definitely you cry because it's a change, but It is something just it is good for you is the response to that.
Like, that's amazing. Congratulations. You know, but one of them quit drinking with me for like, so when you shared that, she was like, yeah, she's like, I think I had to do that too.
Deb Masner: Wow.
Heather Lowe: Yep. And then the other one has been my number one, biggest support. So I went to her house. After a happy hour, um, I had a happy hour where I didn't drink and then I went to her house where we were going to have our usual Thursday night, like drinking thing.
And I said, drink whatever you want. I just got back from this happy hour. It was so hard. I didn't drink. I'm going to have a sparkling water. Do whatever you want. I don't want to make you feel weird. Like, you know, we'll just hang out. And she's like, no, I have to do this real estate class later. We'll both have sparkling water.
So we had these orange sparkling waters. She chopped up an orange garnish for it. We put i t in a beautiful glass And we went outside and drank it together and I was like, it's not so bad. She's like, it's not so bad at all. It's actually better for me. And then, um, I mean, she would slap a drink out of my hand if I even tried. You know, I mean, , and she's, a drinker, right?
So, um, they were very, very supportive. And. It has changed throughout the years, but it started with me giving them a big apology that I was going to quit drinking.
Deb Masner: Wow. Well, I'm so glad you got that response because I think people are terrified to tell their friends.
I would always tell my friends I'm taking a break, so they always knew that. So I didn't quite, it was easier for me to frame it like as a break, as a health thing. I'm drying out. I'm doing a dry month. So that was easier for me. it wasn't till I had actually gotten some traction and some days under me that I started talking more about how it was so hard for me. And I would say all my friends, all my friends, my true friends were very supportive. And some of them , were like, Hey, I'm, I'm having a problem too, or, you know, they could commiserate. And so that was helpful for me. I have had some people that share, like, they haven't had great responses from friends.
That some of their friends don't understand. They're like, oh, you're fine. Like, you don't really have a problem. Like, you're okay. And maybe those friends are in their own denial or whatnot, but they haven't had a great response. Uh, most people though, I would say it's such a relief when you share your truth.
When you share, like, I have a problem.
Heather Lowe: Was it for you when you went back and said, Okay, I've been taking these break breaks, but actually. I feel so much better without it, I, I'm not gonna be drinking, and it was hard for me, it was hard for me to let it go.
Deb Masner: Yeah, I think it was a relief.
Heather Lowe: Cause it was like the secret was out.
Deb Masner: Yeah. You know that meme that says like, the three hardest things to say are, I have a problem. I need help. And Worcestershire sauce.
But I, but those two things, I have a problem and I need help. Like those are really fucking hard to say, especially women where we're like, we can do it. We can do it all. I don't need help. I'm fine. Like you're the whole little meme of I'm fine and the world's on fire.
Heather Lowe: Right.
Deb Masner: I don't know, somehow we have lost that vulnerability of just being like, Hey, I'm struggling.
I'm a human. I'm struggling. I need help.
Heather Lowe: I feel like that's a really, really beautiful message, Deb. Thank you for saying that, Worcestershire sauce.
Deb Masner: And bonus points if you can spell it.
Heather Lowe: Worcestershire? No. Um, Because that's literally what I do with my husband. I said, I have a problem. I need help. And you know what?
That's what I did with you on our Marco Polos. When we had the opportunity together to bring our friendship to a deeper level was saying, I have a problem and I could use some help. So if anybody listening to this, podcast wants to know how to make a friend or how to deepen a friendship or how to be authentic or real or find a safe place, person, relationship for you, I think we can definitely use that meme.
I think you say, is this somebody that I can say, I have a problem, I need help. And if you can't, like, why not? What, what needs to change? Or is that not a safe person? And when you're hunting for new friends. Is this a person that you feel is as nonjudgmental as Deb is and that you could never be too much to and you could say, I have a problem and I need help and you're not friends, maybe like attract and repel, you're not really friends, like deep friends with somebody that you couldn't say that to, right, even if it's a minor problem at work or a mom problem with your mom group or whatever it is, acting like we have everything together all the time doesn't create friendships.
It doesn't make connection, but saying I have a problem and I could use some help does.
Deb Masner: Yeah. Yeah. You don't have to suffer in silence, right?
Heather Lowe: Yeah. And that's what somebody says, me too, right? I mean, somebody has an opportunity to say me too. And I think that's what really, really connects us as kind of our struggles, not our strengths.
Deb Masner: Absolutely. I mean, , I guess I'm lucky that every time I have shared, it's just made relationships stronger. And it's made the shame go away, you know, the whole shame can't live in the dark, shine a light on it. And yeah, I mean, we're just all humans. We're not perfect. Nobody is.
Heather Lowe: Yeah, and pretending to be doesn't, doesn't give us friendships.
And I think even with you are like, Oh my God, she's so successful. She's doing all these things. When we got to know each other a little bit and I shared some things, you're like, Oh, okay. Like even you struggle with this or that, or even you have questions about this or that. Like it's not all what you think it is.
Right.
Deb Masner: Yeah. Yeah. Totally.
Heather Lowe: Yeah, so get deep with people, get to know people, and you can make an internet friend. So I think saying I like you, I mean you reach out to somebody and you just say I like you, that will be well received. I can't imagine a person in the world that would turn that down. They would say, Oh my gosh, get over here, you know what I mean, get over here, I'm going to latch on, I'm going to take my claws and now you're in, I'm going to Marco you, um, I'll share with the world, no shame.
A 17 minute Marco the other day. .
Deb Masner: No, that's because I do those for you. .
Heather Lowe: We call it a, it could have been a podcast. Could have been a podcast. So today we podcast could have been an email report. Thank God. Yeah. So we can share it with the world. But yeah. Any final tips to making a friend or being a friend or, um, navigating friendships?
Deb Masner: I was just thinking about like, that's that whole, how do we make friends when we're adults? Like, where do we find them? How do we, you know, and it's kind of the, it's almost like you're dating, honestly. And so it's finding like, You want to find like minded people, or I have a friend, her husband said, find heart minded people.
So it can be reaching out to people on Instagram, like it could be, if that's your jam. It could be looking on apps, looking for meetup groups, um, maybe even through your work. Maybe inviting someone for coffee. Maybe it's community. Maybe it's Church, you know, like, I mean, there, I know that there are other people out there that are lonely and they are looking for connection too; what would you say?
What advice do you have for finding and making new friends? Oh, the gym. I was going to say the gym too. I've made some good friends at the, the young men's Christian association. Also known as the Y.
Heather Lowe: Like yoga studios and stuff like that. Like any groups. My gym has definitely has things. Um, like Groupon or Living Social has activities.
So, you know, for connection. But yeah, communities, any kind of community or support groups that you can research and find are definitely ways to get out there. But you're not going to make a friend without being vulnerable and you have to put yourself out there so you have to initiate too, like, people might not necessarily just come to you and say, I like you, and I want to be your friend, you might have to reach out to them.
And so you, you do have to have a little skin in the game yourself. And you do have to risk being rejected if that person doesn't want to go for a walk or doesn't want to have coffee And it is like dating like you keep taking it a step further and sharing more and it's matched It's mirrored by the other person and then you see where this will go But honestly, I went on a sober retreat and that's how I made some really good sober friends spending time together , those are great opportunities.
I have a sober community. You have a sober community, I know. And people in there have become buddied up with each other. So, if you have something in common, like sobriety, um, finding a community of heart minded, like minded people like that can work. And I know people have this for cancer support groups, or divorce support groups, or um, anything that you have overcome, there are support groups or widow groups.
, right? Like things that are parents of kids with special needs, things like that, that automatically connect you looking to find support in that way.
Deb Masner: Yeah, I want to, share this poem with you, not written by me. You don't want a poem written by me. I was trying to move it, but I can't. Okay, this is from Donna Ashworth, who I love her poems and her work.
This is just called Friendships. Says, I don't think friendships are given enough credit. We sign no contract, we say no vows, and yet we are there for each other, for better or for worse, in sickness and in health. We laugh together in life giving amounts. We cry together without shame. We pull each other up, out of the mud, again, and again, and again.
I don't think friendships are given enough credit. Unwritten love stories, each and every one.
Heather Lowe: Hmm. So true. So true.
Deb Masner: It's a love story.
Heather Lowe: They are love stories and we have a love story too. Thank you.
Deb Masner: I know. We have a little cute love story.
Heather Lowe: We have a meet cute, we have it all. Um, tell everybody where they can find you, follow you so they can be your friend too.
Everyone's going to want to be your friend. Now I'm going to get jealous because everybody's going to want to be your friend and I want to be like I was here first.
Deb Masner: No, you just, you're the more the merrier, Heather. Um, yeah, you can find me at AlcoholTippingPoint. I'm on Instagram, I have a podcast, I have a website, AlcoholTippingPoint.
com. And if you're ever in Boise, hit me up and let's go to coffee or go on a walk, go to the Greenbelt. I would love to, I would love to meet you. I love meeting people. I love hearing stories. So, yeah, that's how they can find me.
Heather Lowe: Awesome. Thank you, Deb. Thanks for tackling this topic of friendship and for being my new best friend.
Deb Masner: Oh, thank you so much. I can't wait to meet in real life in Seattle, sober in the city.
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Heather Lowe: And that's a wrap for today's episode of the Peripeteia podcast, a talk show for women. Join us in the insider community with a seven day free trial to continue the conversation at ditchthedrink. com. And don't forget to download my free ebook, The 12 Truths to change your life. Do it for the plot. \ , We'll see you in the next episode. Lots of love. .
