Perip. Ep. 5 - Julie Wilson on Prayer
Heather Lowe: Hi, babes. Listen up. You landed here at the Peripeteia podcast, and I'm so glad to have you enjoy these real girl talk conversations about the things that matter. From the ordinary to the extraordinary, and every plot twist in between, I welcome you. Life has a way of throwing us curveballs, and these are the stories of female resilience while navigating change with newfound purpose.
This is Peripatea. I'm so glad you're here. Let's embark on this journey together. Here we go!
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Welcome, Julie. I'm so excited.
I'm going to let you introduce yourself, but first I'm going to share what I know about you and then we're going to have a minute to reconnect. So Julie and I haven't seen each other for a very long time. Julie was my middle school youth group leader and I've had this topic of prayer coming up and we'll obviously we're going to talk about that for this whole episode, but you were the first person that came to mind from my little hometown and I know now you're actually the pastor at a church in Madison, Wisconsin and that's the church where I got married at.
, and I have this big long story. I picked that church because obviously it's a beautiful location in front of the Capitol and everything, but also there was a female pastor there at the time and I went to somebody else's wedding who had her and I loved her. So my husband and I went through all the marriage stuff with her.
And then right before our wedding, she quit and made somebody else, who didn't know us at all. And she kept saying, um, like, I didn't agree with like anything she did. I didn't prove anything she did. I had this whole other plan and she was talking about clothe yourself in love, clothe yourselves in love. And I was wearing a strapless wedding dress and I kept thinking she was like, I shouldn't be wearing that dress in church.
So.
Julie Wilson: That's funny.
Heather Lowe: I know. So now you're there. I mean, I'll renew my vows with you anytime. So tell our audience a little bit about you and your background and, , our connection and we'll, we'll kind of go from there. And also, I know. This is the time of prayer for you. So we'll, um, after an introduction, we'll start with a prayer and then head into our conversation.
Julie Wilson: So, yeah. So right now I serve as the lead pastor of Bethany United Methodist Church in Madison, Wisconsin. I've been there not quite two years. Uh, before that I was in Mount Horeb and then some small churches around Wisconsin. So I'm a ordained elder in the United Methodist Church. , which means I, I have a seminary degree, a master's in, divinity and went through all the process to get ordained, um, later in life after I was your youth group leader.
Um, so I started working at the church, , and just kinda, um, felt a nudge , from God to, to do more. So when my own kids were in middle school, I went back to school, um, and got my seminary degree. God ordained. So, and I've been serving local churches ever since.
Heather Lowe: And I love that.
Julie Wilson: I love it. It's the best job in the world.
Heather Lowe: Yeah. So it's always been on your heart and mine. I mean, for a long time, ever since, you know, I was in middle school. And the other interesting thing is whenever I do, uh, myself, when I do like a career assessment or something, clergy always comes up for me. I always love that too, because I felt like, Like I love an audience.
So I always wanted to just give a Sunday sermon, share my lessons of the week. You know what I mean? And now I do have a little community that listens to me, but I don't have a degree in divinity.
Julie Wilson: See, I'm just the opposite. I never like, like public speaking. Like I'm such an introvert. I never wanted to speak in public.
My brother asked me to read scripture at his wedding. And I said, no, because I don't like talking in front of people. Yeah.
Heather Lowe: Isn't that part of the job now?
Yeah, you have to push through that part, but you like, um, the one on one support or the small.
Julie Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I don't now I don't mind preaching, but it's not like easy for me.
Heather Lowe: Yeah. I just want to high kick across the whole stage. No, yeah. Oh my gosh. Okay, will you. Um, since we both have a little nerves to start, will you lead us through a prayer since it's actually your prayer time right now? As you said, I'm just going to share with the listeners at 9 10 every day, you have a little reminder on your calendar to pray.
So that's the time that we're recording this. So I would love a little prayer to start us off.
Julie Wilson: So, um, yeah, let's pray. God, God of love, God of possibilities, uh, who would have thought all those years ago that we would meet up again to share our faith journey, uh, to share a prayer together and reconnect our lives and share what we know about prayer with others.
We are so grateful for this time together and for your love that has surrounded us and guided us and brought us to this place this day. Amen.
Heather Lowe: Amen. Thank you. That feels special to me because I'm sure the last time I saw you was actually at Gabe's funeral.
Julie Wilson: I was going to say, I bet it was at a funeral.
Yeah.
Heather Lowe: So, um, to the listeners who kind of know some of my story, I don't know how much of my story, you know, but I'm a sober recovery life coach now for others. I quit drinking myself in February of 2018. And, um, I was always a drinker. I was born in Wisconsin, right? It was just part of my life, rite of passage, um, seemingly normal drinking through my whole life, but I actually loved it more than most.
And so, Our friend, my friend who was in the youth group with us, who was a dear friend of mine and ended up being my prom date, was the cutest boy in our class and the sweetest boy in our class too. I might be biased, but actually, um, it was probably a little over 10 years ago now. , fell off a roof accidentally and died on the 4th of July.
And so I was asked to do his eulogy, which I was really, really honored to do. But in doing that, I didn't want to feel my grief because I wanted, like we were talking about, to perform. I wanted to do a really good job performing, this eulogy. Um, I just wanted to do his family, his brother, his friends, right.
So I, Stuffed my own emotions about that grief to do that and then I was hit with two more deaths. One was my dad and my dad who actually would probably be called more like a classic alcoholic. He quit drinking when I was very young. He didn't utilize any programs. Um, and I did his eulogy and then another friend that left without warning who was also my age leaving a family of four.
So this sort of changed my drinking behavior to self medication. You know, from social or more regular drinking to more, um, self medication and drinking alone to, to manage those feelings of grief or ignore stuff, those feelings of grief. So that kind of escalated into anxiety and depression and all that stuff and, finally got free of it and then had to spread the good news to everybody.
I had to, had to become a preacher of sobriety to everybody I know.
Julie Wilson: Different kind of preaching, yeah, yeah.
Heather Lowe: Yeah, so, so that's my story. But I also didn't use, um, AA and stuff. So I'm curious, like what your church offers and what you have for that. But just saying a prayer with you right now and remembering, um, our beautiful mutual connection and the last time I saw you, it was kind of special. So you have these moments all the time in your work, these special moments.
Julie Wilson: I guess that's it. That's the best part, right? Is those relationships that you make and you just never know you know, where your lives are going to cross again.
and what, what that means. And sometimes you think like you. Like people will say like, Oh, you said this such and such. And that really meant a lot. And I don't even remember saying it, let alone thinking it was anything profound, you know? So I, I feel like that's all God, you know, God. Yeah.
Heather Lowe: You feel like it moving, coming through you.
Julie Wilson: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Because well, , my family will tell you that every week I think my sermons really crappy. And, you know, , it's usually the ones that I think like, Oh my gosh, this is just, I just threw this together and no, you know, that's the one that somebody is going to come up to me and say like, Oh my gosh, you were, you said exactly what I needed to hear today.
Heather Lowe: Yeah. The message came through you and landed on the person that needed to hear it. , so what was your faith upbringing?
Julie Wilson: Was raised in the Roman Catholic church. So, yeah. So I was raised up until Ted and I got married and my husband and I got married in the Roman Catholic church.
Um, and Ted was the one who was United Methodist. And so when we were first dating, we kind of went back and forth to, um, both churches. I knew it was really important for my parents that we got married in the Catholic church. So that's what we did. , But then, I went to the church that he grew up in and it was like a little tiny church with like 25 people.
And like, you could tell they just all loved each other so much and really cared about each other. And that was something I never experienced going to church. I mean, we went to church every Sunday and I grew up in a loving family, but I never experienced a church family.
Heather Lowe: Oh yeah, I love that. , , I , was baptized and had my first communion Catholic. My mom remarried. She, she went to Catholic school. She, I mean, her whole family is very Catholic and then she remarried though. And my stepdad's first marriage wasn't annulled. So she couldn't have communion in the Catholic church anymore. So he was like the most faithful person that I know.
So to see her being shunned just didn't. feel right. And so, um, and she wanted a family and a community. So that's why we were in Lodi. And then we moved to, you know, to, um, Methodist and my grandma, my, obviously my dad's mom was a, was a member there. And it's just fellowship. Like the fellowship is, that's what I always say about Methodist.
Feels like fellowship is so, important in that community.
Julie Wilson: Yeah That family feel. And that's what, you know, that's exactly it. When I came to the Lodi church, I felt that too. Even though, you know, it was a bigger church, you could still tell that people loved and cared about each other. And we're, yeah, intimate part of each other's life.
And, and the communion thing too. I mean, we couldn't have, well, we could have communion at our wedding, but Ted couldn't receive or know anyone in his family. It's like, no, we're not going to do that.
Heather Lowe: Yeah. Yeah. You want to be inclusive? Yes. Yes. So tell me about prayer. Did you, did you pray as a little girl?
I mean, you probably had to say your hail Mary's and your, uh, do your rosary. Of course.
Julie Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. We did the row. We prayed the rosary. Yes. Um, my siblings talk more about that than I did. I think I didn't go to Catholic school, so I didn't, but yes, we definitely pray the rosary. Um, I had like vivid memories of my grandma praying a lot.
Like if there was a storm, she would light a candle and pray. Um, she had this really well worn I I'm looking over here cause I have her prayer book still. Um, is this my grandma? Yes. Catholic grandma. Yep. Yep. So she would, you know, every day she would pray out of her prayer book and, , you know, we went to church Every Sunday, you never missed,
,
holy days.
Um, but they were always pretty much always rote prayers. Somebody else had written them.
Heather Lowe: Yeah, that's what I was going to say. Was it was prayer and my, my grandma, my very, very Catholic grandma too. She would pray for probably two hours every morning. And so thank goodness I was always included in there.
But was it for you to begin with? like something you had to do and memorize because that was something that you had to do? Or was it like talking to God? Like, would you say prayer? Like, how would you define prayer and how it changed from how you were taught versus?
Julie Wilson: Yeah, I would say growing up it was something that I had to do.
Yeah. And I never really think about that connection to God so much. Yeah.
Heather Lowe: It wasn't a connection more as reciting words.
Julie Wilson: Right. Yes. . Most definitely. But I've come back to a place, you know, so, so I kind of went to that place where it's like, it's not really a prayer unless it comes from your heart and you're the one saying it.
And I've come back to a place where like, people really write beautiful prayers and it's okay.
To use
someone else's words and as well because they can stir something deep inside of you that I don't have those words sometimes so now I use a mix and I don't feel guilty about it like I used to like I was cheating or something, you know,
Heather Lowe: that's the Catholic in you.
Julie Wilson: I've got that. Oh, never get rid of that. That's for sure. Yeah.
Heather Lowe: Oh, I love that. Um, Your prayer this morning spoke to me. I didn't know what you were going to say. I don't even know if we're on the same page. We haven't talked for a very long time. And when we knew each other, I was a child. So
Julie Wilson: right. Exactly.
Yeah.
Heather Lowe: But you were like, love, you know, love, you use the word love, and it felt inclusive to anybody who's listening. And then you also use the word possibility. And that's one way like that. I market my community. I say accountability, community, possibility. And so, Um, and especially people that are struggling with any sort of addiction issues, um, even high level, that idea of hope or that they could get out of the cycle or out of this rut that there is possibility is such a powerful word.
So it moved me and I appreciated that.
Julie Wilson: So I'll tell you about that prayer , so, in my church, we've been doing something, uh, called breakthrough prayer. And it's a, I don't know, a person who wrote a book, uh, you can read the book, um, but it, it is asking God to break through, um, and so we, like, my whole church prays the same prayer every day, and we're either praying at 9, 10 a.
m. or 9, 10 p. m., because our address, you have to follow along here now, the address of the church is 3910 Mineral Point Road, And the scripture passage that we, like, used to base the prayer off of is, um, 1 Samuel chapter 3 verses 9 and 10, which is where Samuel is, sleeping and he hears God and he doesn't realize that it's God and then Elijah says, you know, that you should say, speak, Lord, for your servant is listening.
So we had that idea of listening. So the prayer is that we pray every day is God of all possibilities. We are listening. Embolden us to recognize where love and hope are needed most.
Heather Lowe: Oh my gosh, that is so beautiful.
Julie Wilson: And so everyone in my congregation has been praying that for over a year and we have started like making God sightings or where you have seen, um, where you have experienced God in your life or in the world and either writing, lighting a candle or writing it on like a, right now we're using music notes.
Where, where's your, where's your heart been singing this week is what we were talking about. And then we write it on a music note and put it on a bulletin board, um, for the whole church to see. And it's kind of interesting because we've really, and I didn't really think about it until we started doing it, but we've really, um, been talking about that we expect God to show up.
And when you expect God to show up. You see God . It is possible. And it's sort of interesting that sometimes when I'm like preparing my sermon and I'm reading things and people like just a few weeks ago, it was like, when was the last time you went to church and expected God to show up? I expect God to show up every week when I go, but I think sometimes we don't,
Heather Lowe: I love what you said because it's listening. Prayer is listening and paying attention. Maybe it's being like God is all around. If only you open your eyes to see, like if you're paying attention, right? Right. Yeah. Yeah. prayer at the same time, that collective energy. Yeah. Yeah.
Community knowing. your, your community is all doing that. You know, you're not aloNe..
Julie Wilson: It's really powerful. I think. Yeah.
Heather Lowe: So when did that change for you from, do you remember like from reciting words that you're supposed to recite to listening and opening up and actually having a spiritual connection or feeling like you have a relationship with God?
Julie Wilson: I think, you know, um, when I was, doing, disciple Bible study. several different ones and small groups. Just, I think it's like a gradual thing. I couldn't, I don't think I can say like at this moment I changed, but it was definitely that, that gradual of God, like calling me and, um, showing me and just different people, like there's so many people who.
, are still really important to my faith journey. You know, I'm sure I name 'em. You'll, you'll know them. I know. I'm like, she o she's the ultimate Methodist as far Ascher. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Leslie. Leslie Everett. Yeah.
Heather Lowe: Yeah.
Julie Wilson: Terry Kurtz.
Heather Lowe: Yes. Yeah. All the church ladies for sure. .
Julie Wilson: Yes, exactly.
Heather Lowe: And I mean, they, you know, so you stayed curious.
You stayed curious about religion, about God, about your own relationship through all this time, and then you continued to get educated about it. When did you decide to take that leap? Like, what were you doing before you became divine?
Julie Wilson: I'm not divine, but, um, so, well, I, you know, I started, my first career was a travel agent.
I don't know if you knew that, but maybe, maybe I was probably not doing that, um, probably doing that when I was teaching Sunday school. And, um, I mean we started teaching Sunday school, like before we even joined the church, because I don't know they, they thought we were related to someone else in the church so they, so they yeah some other Wilsons and we were young I mean we started coming like right after we got married.
Heather Lowe: We loved you. We couldn't believe it.
Julie Wilson: I remember you guys always asking us if we were going to have kids.
Heather Lowe: Yes, because you were these young, cool people who would want to take, like we were, I remember being in a van and going caroling and stuff, just like rowdy, awkward middle schoolers. And you, Chose to be with us like nobody else loved you guys.
Abuse guys. I know you loved us. And then we had like,
Julie Wilson: we still do, we calls you guys all as kids. So like we, we see Megan once in a while and he's like, oh yeah, she's one of our kids. Yes. .
Heather Lowe: I know. So yeah, we were over the moon to have some young cool people like you. Yeah. And just wondered when you're gonna have kids of your own and leave us.
Julie Wilson: Yes. Yeah. But we didn't leave you.
Heather Lowe: No, you never did. Yeah.
Julie Wilson: And that was actually, that was when I decided to go to seminary. Ted was like, well, that's okay, but I'm not going to quit teaching Sunday school. Oh, um, so yeah, it was just like this gradual call. So I started being a Christian ed director, uh, part time.
And then, I don't know if you remember that, like I shared that job with another woman. Um, and then when she decided to leave, Um, then I did the job by myself and I, it was just like these gradual steps. And I remember, um, Forrest Wells asking me if I want to do the children's message. And I was like, and then I said, okay.
And I did it. And I was like, Oh, I could do that. You know? So it was like everything I said, okay, God, I don't think I can do that. And God would say, why don't you just try? And then I would, and then I could. So, um, And then I just, I felt this call to ministry and I don't know if I could really name it at that point, but I didn't, I didn't even have a bachelor's degree.
I just had an associate degree. So I was like, well, and so God said, well, go see if you can find, get your bachelor's degree. So I'm like, okay, fine. I'll just go take the college entrance exam and I'll prove to you that I can't do this. Of course, I passed it and got in. And so, just kept taking those, those little baby steps and, um, and
Heather Lowe: pushing past resistance every time.
Julie Wilson: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.
Heather Lowe: Is it, um, when, when God is talking to you, is it outside you or inside you or both the nudge that says keep going or give it a try?
Julie Wilson: I think I don't like hear like an audible voice, um, except for once. I know that wasn't an audible voice, but I'll tell you about a funny story if you want, but I, I just, yeah, it's more of a nudge.
And sometimes it's like, Hmm. I wonder if I should be like with the whole seminary thing. Like, I wonder if I'm really being called to ministry. And then like, I might be having a conversation with you and you might say, Hey, Julia, have you ever thought about going into ministry? And, uh, I mean, to me, that's God, like saying,
Heather Lowe: recognizing the signs,
Julie Wilson: recognizing. Yeah. Yeah. So, like we said before, like the site, yeah, I think God is all around us, but we have to be. open and seeing where God is working. Recognizing, is this a sign or is that just a coincidence or do I just ignore it?
Heather Lowe: Yeah. It sounds to me like it's asking a question and then staying aware for the answer.
Should I do this or can I do this? Or is this the calling for me? Um, Right. And the paying attention. So we can all be doing that all the time and we can be praying all day long, right?
Julie Wilson: oh, absolutely. I don't think, yeah, I think, I think prayer is constant. I don't, yeah.
Heather Lowe: You don't have to sit on your knees and by your bed.
Julie Wilson: No, no. Okay. And in fact, one of the reasons I was a little tardy this morning is because I went for a run because I'm having a crabby. I'll just say it. I was crabby this morning.
Heather Lowe: You weren't filled with spirit.
Julie Wilson: Yes. And that's when I talk to God when I run. Um, and that really helps my mental health and my physical health too, but my mental health, especially so.
Heather Lowe: So yeah, I think walking yoga, yoga is for me, hiking is for me. I
used to be running that anymore, but that's just a moving meditation, right? It's just like a moving prayer, right? Right. Is there a difference between meditation and prayer?
Julie Wilson: I don't really think so.
When people get hung up on that, I did, I did hesitate when we were praying because a lot of times I say in Jesus name or something like that, because I'm a Christian, but I didn't say that when we prayed because I don't get hung up on that either.
I mean, I think God is God. And
Heather Lowe: I was going to ask about that too. Like if religion is different than prayer, right? Different religions have different ways of praying, right? There's prayer flags or prayer beads or like rosary, like we talked about, or, oh my gosh, in the Catholic church, kneeling, standing, bowing.
Yes. Across all the things. Um, But if it, if it changes by religion, or if. In your opinion, like prayer is prayer and it's like we talked about just, you can call it God or source or spirit or whatever you want.
Julie Wilson: I feel like, you know, you know, it's probably just as individual as we, we are, right? You know, like, we don't all listen to the same kind of music.
We don't all watch the same TV shows. And so why would we think that the same exact kind of prayer is going to connect us to God? You know, , and to me, that isn't that the most amazing thing about God that, you know, we all connect to God in our own way.
Heather Lowe: and it feels like an energy too like you said, like, collectively when everybody's praying at the same time, it's like the butterfly effect.
If all the butterflies are flapping their wings, it can change the wind, right? Right, right. , small group of committed people can really change the world. And if we're all putting our energy and the energy is love. You know, that's what you call it. It's the same thing. So if somebody is struggling, because I think a lot of people are probably, um, and I have, like, I visited different churches in college trying to find something that fit.
And you know what? To be honest, nothing really did, because it's sort of like take what works and leave the rest, no matter where you go, probably because like you said, we're all individual. But since I found different practices and through my sobriety journey, I found practices of listening, which I, for me, is like journaling or meditating and yoga, sound baths, and prayer, always prayer.
I have a little book called Prayer for Girls, which has, which I probably got when I was like, Seven or eight years old and it has some, um, blank pages in the back to write your own prayers. And anyways, I still have that in my little writing and that was my first like That's cool. Yeah. My first way of starting to talk to God or , ask for guidance in a, in a certain way, which eventually, the funny thing is I wanted to turn it into.
A journal called dare to dream DTD. And so in my, I started this pretend business in my closet of helping people live their best lives by journaling their dreams, dream. Oh, I didn't have any clients, but my cat. So then I teach, like I was in the business of helping cats live their best lives, but when I started my company, Ditched the Drink, I was working in a bonus room off my closet and not one day I was like, I'm working in my closet again, just like the third grade with my DTD company.
It was like, so stupid as I was like, this was always meant to be, this was God's plan, right? Yeah, I've been working on this. Little did I know. But if somebody has had a bad experience with religion, maybe, or a negative thing, often family self upbringing or different experiences, feeling excluded or whatever.
It's hard. They're turned off by religion, and then they're turned off by faith, maybe. And how would somebody reconnect with that and find the freedom to find something that resonates with them and to grow themselves in that way?
Julie Wilson: I would say that that is like a huge part of my call to ministry because I kept experiencing places where people either felt like the church wasn't relevant or that they weren't welcome or, um, that Christians were, um, hypocrites and, um, said one thing and did another thing, or they were judging.
And I I always find myself always saying like, well, not all churches are like that. Not all Christians are like that. And that was part of why I felt like God wanted me to go into ministry to kind of have that different message
and that's what I love about the United Methodist Church is we don't have like a doctrine that says you have to agree with all of these things to join. The church, you know, we want people to use their brains and read scripture for themselves and try to see what God is talking to them. So I would say like, just keep exploring and questions are really good.
And if you go to a church or any kind of religious person who tells you, you shouldn't be asking questions, then I would say find someone else, because I think, you know, Jesus taught in parables all the time. He didn't like give us the answers. He wanted us to figure them out. it would be easier when that, like, if God just said, here's what you should do.
Here's wake up this morning and here's your plan.
Heather Lowe: I know. So that is interesting because I went on that exploration. I remember my college years, like I said, when I was trying different things, but it felt scary to question because you were raised not to question to just be right. And so I think I had honestly enough faith that I knew I was going to find something because I trusted that if I questioned.
I would find answers for, you know, like answers that sat with me that said there is a, there is a bigger energy and you're part of a collective and it's not just you, you know.
Julie Wilson: And I, I would say that to parents too, because I mean, I've had so many parents over the years come to me and say like, you know, Oh, my child says they don't believe in God.
And I'm like, great, that's really good. They're actually starting to think on their own, you know, and they think, Oh my gosh, you know, like, I worry more about people who never question.
Heather Lowe: Right? Because that's the cultish thing. That's the fear, right?
Julie Wilson: That's fear. And, or that's just not really faith. It's just like following what you're told to do rather than finding your own faith.
And I think it has to come from inside and you have to find God on, on your own. Nobody can, we can help each other, but I think in the end you have to figure it out for yourself and
Heather Lowe: yeah. And I think, um, that
Yeah, in those questions, you find the answers and also so many people are mumbling along and they don't even know what they're saying.
They've never even stopped to think what this means. And honestly, that's why wars are started, right? Because we believe so strongly this and we believe so strongly this or we're repeating something that was shared that we don't even know what that really means.
Julie Wilson: Right. Right. Then we have to prove that we're right.
Heather Lowe: Yeah.
Julie Wilson: You know, and I have to check myself that way too. When I think like, I know what God wants, then I really have to step back and say like, Hmm, do I, or am I just being stubborn or being, you know, dogmatic myself. And yeah, cause I don't think we ever really do know. Um, That that's where the faith comes in and the possibilities because
Heather Lowe: I love that you being a faith leader that can recognize that in yourself, like, and to each their own, right?
Julie Wilson: Like, well, and if you,
yeah, I mean, if you look in scripture to all the people, like, you know, most of the leaders didn't, they were like question, like, why are you choosing me God? Like, um, but yeah, I can't do this. And God said, yes, yes, you can. You know, He's always used the most unlikely people.
Heather Lowe: Yeah. So tell me about that because you must have to fight a little bit of imposter syndrome or something to be like, okay, no, I'm like, no, I'm standing at the head of the church.
I have a master's degree in this and still I'm human. Right?
Julie Wilson: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.
Heather Lowe: I'm just a grouchy mom this morning.
Julie Wilson: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. , every week I, I, I fight that. it's amazing to me that, that God uses me. Um, and, ,, I just have to trust God.
Like, honestly, I'm so insecure. And such an introvert, um, that, and, and I think that's why, like, I need to go for a run or for a walk or whatever. I just need to refill my own tank. And, um, I surround myself with other clergy colleagues who, , have the same struggles, and honestly, most of us do.
Heather Lowe: I love it. It's so good. So it's so similar to like me being a coach too. I'm a life and recovery coach. One more, all this stuff. So it's like, Oh, you're a life coach. Like you tell people how to live your life, their life or something like you probably have to know. Um, and I have a community to a membership community.
So it's, It's sort of, in some ways, similar what we're doing, and I feel like the lessons of community and of showing up as you are and being real, like, that's what resonates. When I brag about having everything together or when I'm, you know, promoting something, that doesn't hit with anybody. When I say, I'm scared to do this, or, you know, or I have a lot of resistance to this, or I've made a mistake.
Everybody rushes to want to learn more about that, right?
Julie Wilson: Yeah, absolutely. People know when you're authentic and when, when you're not. I think that's why I love doing youth ministry, right? Because kids are super honest. They ask the hard questions, and they're not afraid to You know, say what they're thinking.
And, you know, I think if adults could be more like that, sometimes our world would be a better place too.
Heather Lowe: Totally. Or people that are diagnosed with all these things that are like, again, someone like, um, people with addiction problems have impulsivity issues and things like that. , I just love it. The most honest people in the world, or when I volunteer with like Special Olympics, please, we're just saying our, our insides are matching our outsides.
We're just saying everything exactly as it is. Great. We're rooting for us, and we're rooting for the gal next to us, too.
Julie Wilson: What's wrong with that? Yeah.
Heather Lowe: This is actually better than any other competition I've ever been a part of, because it's not a competition, right? It's all like , we're rooting everybody on because we're not in comparison and we're not judging and we're not, you know, those things that we are trying to, , decrease about ourselves every day.
It was more natural for kids or, or
others. So,
Julie Wilson: and our own human nature,
like, just always keeps creeping in. And so, yeah, I think we always have to be really in check with that. , and you said the word love way back in the beginning; it was Terry Kurtz, um, my hairdresser at the time. And I went to get my haircut, um, one day, and there was like stuff going on at church, it was really stressful time. We were in between clergy people and it was just, and she handed me just a little note card and it had, I said, um, 1 Corinthians 16, 13, and 14.
I think that's the right verse. And the verse is, uh, be strong, be courageous, stand firm in your faith, and let everything you do be done in love. And that has just been my guiding verse ever since then. And, you know, like at the end of the day, if I can look in the mirror and say, like, I tried to do everything today out of love, then I feel like even if I messed everything up,
if I erred on the side of love, then I feel like I did what God wanted me to do that day. And every day I can't do that. Some days I'm like, you were not very loving today. Julie .
Heather Lowe: What interrupts love? What
interrupts that? ?
Julie Wilson: Well, crankiness, like I said, I'm cranky. This morning I don't know why I'm cranky.
Heather Lowe: Yeah. Well, I would say like, um, the guest Rumi has a, a poem called The Guest House where emotions just come Yeah. Without reason and you can just say, Okay, anger. Come and sit for a little bit. And when you're done, you can leave, like I'll welcome every emotion because it's part of the human experience and resentment.
I mean, and I'm perimenopausal. So there's a lot of resentment. so like, um, you know, let it come, let it, let it go.
Julie Wilson: Yeah. Well, and I think if we can, when we can feel those emotions and, and recognize, instead of saying, I'm not crabby, I'm fine. We can say like, I'm kind of crabby today. Maybe you don't want to.
Maybe I, you know, instead of, and instead of like putting it on somebody else too taking it out myself and like, maybe I just need to go for a run or have an extra cup of coffee or, you know, take a few more minutes. and check why I'm feeling like this.
Heather Lowe: Oh yeah. I'm sure Mother Teresa felt things besides love.
Julie Wilson: Probably once in a while.
Heather Lowe: So I love that. Like crabby pastor. Welcome to someone else. I would want to learn from someone who's like, you know what, I'm feeling this. And also, you know how to take care of yourself. You know how to do that. You know, going for a run and an extra cup of coffee and another minute in prayer.
Um, and maybe admitting like, okay, I'm running late. You know, it is, it is like, I think that's really beautiful. I think that's the authenticity that anyone would want to follow.
Julie Wilson: And it took a long time to get there though, too.
Heather Lowe: So learning to take care of yourself.
Julie Wilson: Yeah. So I'm definitely a perfectionist and wouldn't want to admit that I wasn't perfect, but, um, life is so much easier when you really admit that you're not perfect.
Cause none of us are, and we're all just doing the best that we can. You know,
Heather Lowe: yeah, that's a huge part of my community is mostly high achieving women perfectionists drinkers to alcohol goes perfect with that. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. So we're I'm like, we're actually recovering perfectionists, right?
Yeah, let's be and dialing down those expectations and recognizing when we need rest and not proving our worth or productivity and yeah. Yeah.
Julie Wilson: And I think faith goes right along with that, right? Because like, that's what grace is, is God loves us no matter what. God loves us just because we are God's children.
We don't have to prove that love. We don't have to earn that love. We can't do anything to separate us from that love. But in turn, when you love something you want to, Please that person or be kind to that person. Um, but that doesn't, yeah, that doesn't preclude God from loving you. So
Heather Lowe: we are just because we are, we are loved, right?
Julie Wilson: Yeah.
Heather Lowe: Don't have to do anything for it. It's just Ever present. That's really powerful. And then, yeah, to give ourselves grace for our humanness, of course. And also I think prayer is the perfect antidote to drinking because drinking is not paying attention. I mean, alcohol is a numbing agent. So at the minute you drink, you are, um, turning off your judgment, decision making intuition.
You're, you're dumbing all that down. Um, because you, and for me too, I didn't want to pay attention because I didn't want to feel grief and I didn't want to be sad and I didn't want to have the thoughts I was having. Right. And I didn't want to listen to myself because if I listened to myself, what would that mean for my life?
I was, I'd lose friends. What if I lost my marriage? What if I didn't want to be here? I didn't want to hear those things. Right. I just poured alcohol on it to ignore it and keep going. And prayer is the opposite of that. Prayer is paying attention. Right. Prayer is Setting aside, I mean, you can do it all day long and you can also set aside time at 9 10 a.
m. or p. m. Or whenever right I do in the morning in the morning and in the evening To to tune in to see what's going on to recognize to feel what's happening inside of me to feel that i'm feeling angry And what do I need to take care of myself? How am I feeling? And what do I need, you know? And
Julie Wilson: it's being vulnerable, but being vulnerable mostly to yourself.
Heather Lowe: Yeah. And honest. Yeah, honest. And honest, yeah. That's why your Sunday sermon is hard, because you're willing to stand up. Yeah. And, and there's a risk of failure. You could flop every Sunday. You could absolutely. I'm headed to a speaking engagement and that self doubt creeps in so fast, right? Like that's an old pattern.
I'm not going to listen to that, right? Like I'm going to let it be. I'm going to let it flow and I'm going to let the spirit move through me too. It's not all going to be scripted. I'm going to allow for what is happening and I'm going to pay attention
Julie Wilson: because that's real. Yeah. Yeah.
Heather Lowe: Okay. And wrapping up.
First of all, did Jesus turn water into wine? That is what my community wants to know.
Julie Wilson: Maybe. Okay.
Heather Lowe: You
weren't there. We weren't there. We don't know. Does it matter? Alcohol-free wine. There's some really delicious alcohol-free wine..
Julie Wilson: well, there's a funny, um,
actually I preached a sermon about that. Maybe the disciples were like the first wedding crashers. And so the reason that Mary wanted Jesus to turn the water into wine was because like all his friends showed up at this wedding and drank all the wine and they weren't invited.
Heather Lowe: Oh yeah.
Yeah. It was, it was chaos.
Julie Wilson: But I think, I mean, you know, but, does it matter?
What we joke, but I mean, like, I think the point of this story is that Jesus didn't want this family to be disgraced, which would have happened. And Jesus also wants us to enjoy life. You know, there's another scripture, you know, like I came.
So you might have life and have it abundantly. Jesus wants us to enjoy life. Whatever that looks like. Doesn't mean you have to be drunk, but it does mean, you know, it's okay to have a party. It's okay to celebrate , something with your friends. It's okay to be. Happy. Um, you know, and some, some people don't think that's okay, you know, like we shouldn't be, oh,
Heather Lowe: joy is the hardest emotion to feel.
'cause we're like, the minute we feel it, we're afraid we're gonna lose it. The
other shoe's gonna drop. We, yeah.
Julie Wilson: That's profound there, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Heather Lowe: So it's hard. But yeah.
Julie Wilson: I started this thing
a while, a couple, was it last year? It was like, not like a New Year's resolution, but it was, um, it was like, just noticing when you're feeling joy.
And
you just say like this is a happy time and my husband and I started that like last last year and you know we would just look at each other and go like this is a happy time and it really does work and it makes you realize and and to me that's a prayer right whether I say thank God I'm happy at this moment or I just say this is a happy time.
I'm recognizing that I'm happy, and to me that's thanking God just there.
Heather Lowe: I love that. So that is a really good takeaway. We are going to, I call it a joy hunt, hunt for joy, look for joy, because whatever you call to yourself is what you're going to see and find, right, what you put in your mind. But I love that, say it out loud when it's happening and that is a prayer.
That is a, especially because like a recovery journey starts with a lot of, you know, grief and pain and sadness to start and you used alcohol to celebrate or to reward yourself or whatever. So to take it away can feel deprived and sad at first. It's not, that's not how it ends up. That's not the end of the story, but that is how it feels in the beginning.
So to recognize joy is happening right now. I'm feeling joy right now. I took a couple extra minutes this morning to cuddle with my dog because I'm going to be traveling. I'm like, this is the best prayer that I could have. Giving and receiving love. Nobody can receive love as good as Dr. Spaniel. Let me tell you, he knows.
Well, thank you, Julie. Thank you for your time today.
Julie Wilson: This
was so fun! I'm in a better mood now too. So
Heather Lowe: God was with us! I love it. Have a gorgeous day. And, um, well, I'll have everything in our show notes about that breakthrough prayer, that book I'll add, um, the nine 10 prayer. the saying of this is love or look for love your scripture there and just recognize joy as a prayer too.
I appreciate you.
Julie Wilson: Thank you. I appreciate you too. This is really fun.
Okay. Bye.
Heather Lowe: And that's a wrap for today's episode of the Peripeteia podcast, a talk show for women. Join us in the insider community with a seven day free trial to continue the conversation at ditchedthedrink com. And don't forget to download my free ebook, The 12 Truths to change your life. Do it for the plot. \ , We'll see you in the next episode. Lots of love. .
