AUDIO Perip. Christie O. Tate
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Hi, babes. Listen up. You landed here at the Parapatea podcast, and I'm so glad to have you enjoy these real girl talk conversations about the things that matter. From the ordinary to the extraordinary, and every plot twist in between, I welcome you. Life has a way of throwing us curveballs, and these are the stories of female resilience while navigating change with newfound purpose.
[00:01:21] Heather Lowe: This is Peripatea. I'm so glad you're here. Let's embark on this journey together. Here we go!
Christie. I'm so happy to have you here. Thank you so much for being willing to meet with me. You know, you're like my author crush, um, my total celebrity. I can't believe it. Your book group is one of my favorite books of my whole life.
And, um, just so the listeners know we're both in Chicago. So I asked you to come to my. Chicago Alcohol Free Book Club and you said yes and then I fell off my chair and we got to meet in real life and so when I started this podcast I was like you're at the top of the list again you said yes thank you but the best thing is I asked what you wanted to talk about because I know you've done a lot of talks I know you've done a lot of podcasts and you've done you know you've you've done this a lot so I wanted it to be different and special to you and you said you wanted to talk about Recovering from perfectionism and being gentle with ourselves.
And I felt my soft animal of a body fall to the ground in gratitude. So thank you so much for being here.
[00:02:33] Christie O. Tate: Well, thank you for having me. Thank you for being such a wonderful support for my work. And, you know, you're doing really awesome stuff and in my community and I really, really respect it. So it's a complete honor.
And, um, I look forward to digging in because. Every day I need the reminder about the lethality of perfection. So I'm happy to dig in.
[00:02:56] Heather Lowe: Awesome. Yeah. So tell me more. When I asked the question, I mean, how did this come up for you? It's top of mind. It's something you've been working on for a while. It's something you're always thinking about.
Tell me why you chose this topic over any of the multiple things that you could talk about.
[00:03:12] Christie O. Tate: I think that this topic is definitely top of mind because I feel like I have to fight against the idea of perfection in every area of my life. All, all day long, you know, like we have so many messages from culture.
I only know my experience as a woman, as a white woman in the world. And. , feeling like the perfection that we know it's all over motherhood, of course. And I have dragged it into my professional life and my marriage and my friendships. And it's such a straight jacket. And the more I excavate what perfectionism does to me and for me, the more I realize that letting it go makes me feel so vulnerable and so exposed and like there's no perfectionism has.
Operated as like an armor for me, like I, I know I'm the best, you know, which is like such an egotistical quiet thought because I also really think I'm a piece of shit. But if I, I know I have these numbers on these tests or, These rankings or whatever, if I have that, then I'm impervious. But that impervious sense, it's not safety.
It's actually isolation. And I just love having conversations about this with other people, because I think we're all struggling with this.
[00:04:36] Heather Lowe: Mm
hmm. So you've talked about how it shows up in these different areas of your current life. Has it been there before? Has it always been an underlying thing? Or is it something that has grown for you over time?
Oh, that's a good question.
[00:04:53] Christie O. Tate: I think both are true. I think that it has been true my whole life. I grew up in a home where there was alcoholism, then there was recovery. But alcoholism has left its mark. And I definitely was You know, I have the signs. I'm an addict. Um, I'm also, you know, I'm the daughter of an addict.
So I have all the classic symptoms of someone who's going to gravitate towards perfectionism as a way to control the world and control what people think of me. So I can remember, I remember being in first grade and we were having a spelling test. And the girl in front of me, who was really smart, Melissa was her name.
She, had misspelled desks. And she put E S as the plural of desk instead of D E S K S. And I just remember. At the time, I felt no shame about my smugness. I thought, Oh, I'm better than Melissa. I'm better. I know that K is made plural. You put an S on it, whatever. Those kinds of thoughts plagued me all through my life.
And then you get into recovery and you start to realize, Hey, that's not that cool. It's just not that cool to like, walk around trying to be better than everyone. To cover up the fact you think you don't deserve to walk the planet. So I've done a lot of work on that and it feels a little bit, maybe you have this experience too.
The more work I do on it, the more I see it cropping up and , like superlatives, fastest, funniest, wittiest, best, like all of that is just perfectionism. All of that is meant to shellack over very basic low self esteem and a feeling that I have to earn worthiness and everything's a transaction. And that's not, that's not what love is.
That's not what intimacy is. That's not what vulnerability is. That's certainly not what art is. So I have to unlearn a whole pattern that I just grabbed when I was a kid to survive.
[00:06:53] Heather Lowe: I am with you, girl. So first of all, your measurement of success is changing because you thought it was being smarter than Melissa, right?
And that if you were winning and you could spell that, uh, You know, that was it. And I'm with you. I have my, um, kindergarten screening. I can't believe my mom saved this -- notes from my kindergarten screening and I, and they did quotes of what I was saying and I, the, the crayons were shit basically. And they weren't sharp crayons.
So I was having a hard time staying in the lines and it was because these broken crayons that I was trying to use for garbage, and I was so upset that I couldn't do my best work because I didn't have the right tools. And that was for my kindergarten screening. And now looking back, my parents divorced before I was three years old.
And my dad was a typical alcoholic and I know that me being perfect was a way to protect my whole family system that my dad was okay and my mom was okay if I was okay we were all okay yeah polite and if I was good and if I you know if I was good and smart and got good grades and did everything right then everybody would know that everything is okay
[00:08:03] Christie O. Tate: I I'm with you I think there's this whole this I think we have so many good girls around mm hmm because we have a lot of alcoholic parents and family systems that produced, and I'm sure there's lots of good boy.
I can't, I just can't speak to the boy experience, but I know an awful lot of recovering good girls. And I heard one time someone told me, you'll know Christie that you are really recovering when you start to, really upset people when you're no longer trying to be perfect for everyone in every situation and meeting people's needs.
And, you know, a lot of the, a lot of the perfectionism is this isolation. Let's be the valedictorian of all the things. And that's very individualistic. But another way that I have I'm going to say that I've never really seen perfectionism is like in a relationship with a friend. I want to say the perfect thing.
If you're upset, I want to say the perfect thing. I want to come up with the perfect fix, which is so horrible. We know we can't fix people, but it's deeply ingrained in me to try to fix you. Cause like you said, if you're okay, then I'm okay. And we're okay. And I would love my ego would love to play a very big role in making you okay.
Which is. Very problematic, obviously,
[00:09:26] Heather Lowe: I'm a coach. You know, perhaps I could even be somebody's savior.
[00:09:30] Christie O. Tate: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:09:32] Heather Lowe: I could really fix them right. I could really, really.
[00:09:35] Christie O. Tate: Yeah, that would really fix the hole in my soul. If I knew I played a really pivotal role in, you know, somebody else's story or whatever.
So I find that even, like with my kids, you know, I want to say the perfect thing. I want to, I want to have the perfect boundary with my teenagers around screens and how many, how many skincare products my daughter can buy or whatever. And it's just not, you know, That it's not, that's not the right approach.
[00:10:07] Heather Lowe: So like you mentioned so beautifully, if we are measuring ourself on perfectionism or certain numbers or metrics, we're missing out on the beauty, which is the messiness. It's far from perfect and the recovery world. Oh my gosh. I can't wait to hear, you know, how you learned through that, but we're missing out on art.
Intimacy, love, truth, vulnerability, all these things that there is no perfect like "go- to guide" for how to be human. But if we're trying to go play by the rule book, we're missing out on the real beauty. No matter how many. Yeah. How high the number goes? We're still missing out on the real gold there.
[00:10:49] Christie O. Tate: Yeah, that's exactly true for me too. Missing out on vulnerability and collaboration. A lot of my perfectionism has cut me off from very basic things like communicating, communicating with my husband. What should we do about watering the flowers when we're out of town instead of like figuring out myself and like finding it all the solutions myself like I've missed so many moments of connection big and small with everyone in my life because I'm like, I got it.
I'm doing it. It's a story about me instead of I don't know what should we do and having a more collaborative, dialogue. That's just not my, it's not my instinct. I had to learn that I had to like rewrite my programming.
[00:11:33] Heather Lowe: Yeah, totally. All my clients, high achieving women, me too, raised by a single mom.
Like I got it. Don't need anybody independent. Same story, but a for perfect. And we have it all together. Yeah. You're missing out on collaboration. And for yourself, you're expecting. You can't ask for help. And I know, I'm guessing that has gotten you in trouble. It, that is what took me so long to ditch the drink because I couldn't ask for help.
I didn't know that was an option for me. And that would be a sign of weakness or codependence or fragility or something that I didn't, I was protecting myself from. If you have a recovery story, you have asked for help at some point and it's the opposite of perfectionism, right?
[00:12:19] Christie O. Tate: Oh, a hundred percent. I also think in addition to not wanting to ask for help because it felt like vulnerable and, and also I didn't have, I had asked for help a few times as a kid and it didn't go well was my, you know, I was, I felt like I was in trouble.
My parents were mad. My parents were already maxed out with their own stuff. And, um, to have me roll in and have a problem was just like a burden.... I got the message. Whether they meant to send it or not, but like my problems were burdensome and that was intolerable to me and there wasn't much help to give.
And so I had all that messaging. Additionally, I felt like my first hitting bottom was with my eating disorder and bulimia that I got a very clear signal when I was 19 in college. This will kill me. Like I fainted in the shower and I was like, you know, I could, if I fainted in the toilet or if I was facing a different way, like I would have.
I could have drowned. I could have hit my head. Also, even if you're not going to die of that, it's a horrible way to live. So I did get into recovery sophomore year in college and One of the barriers was also like protecting the image of myself, but also it felt like a betrayal of my family. Like, uh-oh, something's really wrong with me.
Felt like I'm betraying the facade that my family had created, that we're good. Dad's in recovery. We go to church, we pay our taxes. Like it's all good. And it really, really, really was not all good for me. So there was also the element of protecting other people. That became a barrier to asking for help.
And I mean, I hope other people have higher bottoms than I did, but I had to really be scared for my life to finally wave a white flag and say, I don't know how to eat. And it's extremely, extremely problematic. It was very, very clearly a problem.
[00:14:19] Heather Lowe: And yet you had to choose saving your life over protecting your family's reputation.
[00:14:25] Christie O. Tate: Yeah. Yeah. Which is a really, that's really, really scary. And I know a lot of people have that story. We don't. It what's interesting to me about recovery and or people who've hit bottom, I mean, I had to hit several times because that's how I am, but. There's so many stories we're carrying that we don't even know are there.
I didn't know that I couldn't get help. Years earlier, people were pulling me aside saying, Hey, is everything cool? Cause it seems like having a backpack full of laxatives isn't very healthy and I could lie. And there were so many people that tried to open a door to me for asking for help and I couldn't walk through it.
So much of it was like, well, if someone at school knows that I have an eating disorder and it's really gross, like bulimia is so gross. It wasn't, it wasn't like "elegance," like anorexia. It was like messy. And then I'll get in trouble and I'll make my family look bad. I didn't know that that was there until I began to get well.
And that was really driving me and kept me out of any kind of healthy, helpful situation for at least a solid five years.
[00:15:37] Heather Lowe: And isn't it interesting because don't you think they already knew you were so scared they were going to find out, but it was also so clearly obvious that they all
[00:15:47] Christie O. Tate: 100 percent
[00:15:48] Heather Lowe: I know we're saying this now.But when I hear this story, I'm like, they knew, you know,
[00:15:54] Christie O. Tate: That is so true.
[00:15:55] Heather Lowe: Because they already knew you weren't, you weren't hiding it, but it's bringing up such a point of like, um, perfectionism and people pleasing. They're so tied together, right? It's almost the same.
[00:16:08] Christie O. Tate: Yeah. I think it very much is the same.
And I would throw in there an element of that, but I see in my current life that I'm dealing with is like this real sense of like conflict avoidance. I've always known that about myself. I'm a middle child, a bulimic daughter of an alcoholic. I am a peacemaker through and through a people pleaser. And even sometimes just to say, , I don't like what's happening here, you know, like, or I, I need something different in group situations or to my husband or to my family, or I just ended up leaving a writing group yesterday and I had tried every way to like, make it still work for me.
I'd been in there many years. I'm loyal. A lot of people pleasers are loyal, like, but it just wasn't working for me. I could feel it in my body. And it was really hard for me just to say, I need to go And I love you, and I'm grateful, and And not to also add, please don't be mad at me. I love you.
It's nothing personal. It's all about, you know, like, just like, don't hate me. Be sure everyone still likes me and nobody's upset. If somebody has a feeling about something I said or did, it feels like I did something wrong, which is not the right conclusion to draw. But I don't, I want people to only have like butterfly happy unicorn feelings around me.
And that's not realistic.
[00:17:33] Heather Lowe: That, I mean, is exactly how I feel about you, but we don't know you. We're going to get deeper, right? Like, eventually I'm going to feel something else. Um, because You have an expectation , I mean, I do, that you're not supposed to upset anybody, that you wouldn't upset anybody, that everybody would like you, but that's not even true or realistic, right?
[00:17:58] Christie O. Tate: Right. Absolutely. Absolutely. Like even, you know, the more honest I've become, the deeper my relationships are and the more fulfilling they are for me because now people actually know me when I was more in my robot. Good girl mode. What did you know about me? Nothing. You know, like nothing real. Nothing.
None of the guts of me could ever come out. So you're right. It's much more, it's much more authentic. That word gets thrown around a lot, but , to be more authentic is the only way for true intimacy. Of course. You know.
[00:18:37] Heather Lowe: Yeah, because perfectionism is such a mask. And instead of being yourself, you're being what you think that person wants you to be.
And then you're also assuming you know what that person wants,
[00:18:48] Christie O. Tate: Right!
[00:18:48] Heather Lowe: No, like there's so much. It's such a toxic behavior. We don't we're like, me? I'm the problem, right? Us codependents, us peacemakers, like we think we're the "helpers." That's very toxic to think we know what somebody else wants. And to think that if we manipulate and mold ourselves in the right way, then we'll be right for them.
And then they'll like us. And then we'll have all these things where that's not true. How did you start? It starts with honesty within yourself. It sounds like to start calling yourself out on these behaviors. And then it's terrifying to be authentic, to let somebody see the real you because the risk is rejection, right?
[00:19:29] Christie O. Tate: Yes, it's, I think for me, I think it's, I mean, people don't love this. I feel like Kate Bowler, the great theologian and writer, is sort of like, isn't so keen on be grateful for the terrible things that happened to you. However, what I do know is about my experience, like with my eating disorder and then later codependent relationship stuff, if it hadn't been as bad as it was, I would not have the motivation to change.
So now I, early on, I learned, well, if I do a bunch of things where I betray myself by, Saying yes when I want to say no is my big one, you know, or over promising or over caretaking or driving someone across the country because they need a ride when it doesn't work for me or my schedule, you know, like I that's the kind of stuff I would do.
And when I got into recovery, I started to feel it in my body, like a rebellion in myself, like I don't want to do this. Like I started to be in touch with my rage and it had been there all along. And when people in recovery started telling me, you can say, no, you don't have to take care of other people who are adults.
I mean, I was 19. I didn't have children. What was I doing? Acting like I'll take care of all the fraternity boys and everyone on my hall. No one asked me to do that, you know,
[00:20:50] Heather Lowe: And I thought that was the first born daughter's job, not the middle daughter's job. So this is interesting.
[00:20:55] Christie O. Tate: I know it's very, yeah.
Like I definitely defy some of the birth order things. Um, so I think too, that the first step was , like clearing my head and began to like wobbly, like a little colt, you know, that's just been born understand. Okay. I can say no, I can pause. I still, that's my favorite tool of any program ever, is like a pause, like. Let me, let me think about that. Let me check the calendar. Let me get back to you.
Whoo! That has saved me a thousand times since I got into recovery, just because I used to be the reflexive, yes, girl, yes, of course, yeah. What, what time do you need to go? Let's, here, take my kidney, you know? Like, nobody asked for that much. Or if they did, it wasn't my obligation to give it to them.
I definitely Had rage all along and that's what the eating stuff down. I minus my belief that I was stuffing down the rage, rage, and some of it was probably just normal toddler grammar school anger.
And then it just became a habit. Like I'll just binge. I don't have to feel. It's very inconvenient to be angry in a family where feelings are not tolerated, nurtured, celebrated, or supported. So that way better to eat seven pieces of bread than have a tantrum. So by the time I got into recovery, I realized, Ooh, if I don't use food to numb out, I have a giant ball of fury to deal with.
And I began to deal with that. And what I realized was all that people pleasing led to a lot of resentment that just seized just right below my breastbone, you know, and it just got bigger and bigger and bigger and it took so much food to coat it.
So once I started to get better, I realized I don't want to create those resentments and then have to eat all that food.
So better not to have the resentment, then I won't need the food. And then it's a much better way of living.
[00:23:01] Heather Lowe: And the resentment is you to you because you're the one that said yes to that, right?
[00:23:06] Christie O. Tate: 100%.
[00:23:06] Heather Lowe: Which is maybe like a little bit of the good Midwestern way,
[00:23:10] Christie O. Tate: Right, right.
[00:23:11] Heather Lowe: Maybe it's a bit cultural too, perhaps.
[00:23:14] Christie O. Tate: Yeah, I mean, certainly being Catholic, that certainly contributed to it being a girl being all the things, um, not to say there aren't codependents who, you know, are from New Zealand and whatever.
But, um, one of the things, even today, when I feel like I have a resentment and I'll call a friend in the program, my closest friend, she'll say to me, This is all self inflicted. You did this to yourself because I really want it to be my husband's fault, my daughter's fault, my therapist's fault. Like I love to play the blame game.
The end of the day, if I look upstream, there is a time and there's a moment where I said yes, or I agreed or I didn't speak up and And what flows from that downriver is always a hot, juicy resentment that I will have to deal with.
[00:24:06] Heather Lowe: Mm hmm. Ooh, hot, juicy resentment. I love it. I'm full of resentment and um, I'm a persecutor for it too.
And it's been passed down from my grandma, Catholic grandma.
[00:24:15] Christie O. Tate: Yeah, yeah.
[00:24:16] Heather Lowe: I get it. Like, everybody's wrong. Everything is wrong. I am always right. Um, you know.
[00:24:22] Christie O. Tate: Totally.
[00:24:23] Heather Lowe: Yeah, but what a good lesson that you've learned is recognize it within further up the stream, right? When somebody asks you that question, how does it feel in your breastbone?
[00:24:34] Christie O. Tate: Yeah.
[00:24:35] Heather Lowe: Know, at that point, and you chose to ignore it. So that's the relationship between you and you. It's not you and the person that you just said yes to, right?
[00:24:46] Christie O. Tate: Right. Which seems like at first I always thought that was like bad news because I lost my ability to blame other people. But where, where I sit today, it's like, that's the good news.
I don't need anybody to do anything differently. I don't need people to not ask me things or or to stop treading on me. I don't need anybody to be different. I have work to do. And usually it's about using my voice, getting clear and not committing until I am clear. And I, sometimes I say yes. And then later the answer is no.
I had to learn there's a mechanism by which you can say, I made a mistake. I, this actually doesn't work for me. And I'm really sorry. Like that's a wonderful tool to the, I made a mistake I committed when I shouldn't have and or things changed or whatever. And I didn't know you could do that. Like I got to be a grown woman, not knowing you could do that.
[00:25:43] Heather Lowe: And change your mind. You're allowed to change your mind. Yes. Yes. You agree to it. It made sense. And things have changed when presented with new information. You can also change. And I love it. That's a gift to the people in your life, Christie, because let's say you have resentment about being here right now.
Like I don't want you here if you don't want to be here. Right. Right. That's not good for you. That's not good for the listeners. But when you say yes, and you're here, I know. You fully want to be here, knowing you know how to take care of yourself, knowing your own self boundaries, that you are only going to show up to the book club because you really want to do that.
You're, you know, you show up to the podcast and that is a gift to yourself and everybody around you. So it makes a lot of sense. I love how you said that we're talking about pleople pleasing and you're like, well, Kate Bowler is not going to like this.
[00:26:29] Christie O. Tate: I want to please her.
[00:26:33] Heather Lowe: I love her. And I might disagree with this one thing.
Um, but I too feel very grateful for my darkest days because it has led me to an awakened light. Um, and I have this work that I get to do, right, and have all this insight to myself and this whole new relationship with myself. And it means admitting I make mistakes. And then it's also like allowing myself to make mistakes, right?
And not expecting that I wouldn't. Of course I will. And of course, somebody won't like me. And of course, somebody's mad at me somewhere for something, and maybe they have good reason to be, you know, so, yeah. So how would you define perfectionism? If you mentioned like self protection, is it always a negative trait or are there some positive things?
And also I did win the spelling bee. I think everybody should know that.
[00:27:22] Christie O. Tate: Okay, first of all, I love that.
[00:27:23] Heather Lowe: So you're not smarter than me, Christie Tate.
[00:27:26] Christie O. Tate: I love that you said that. Um, this is, I just, this is funny. This is reminding me. I just, we, I was working with a web designer, this wonderful web designer, and she's redoing my website.
And she kept saying to me, you need to send me your bio. And I was like, Oh, I'm so sick of my bio and I don't know what to say. And, um, and so I, you know, I, I live in Chicago. I published this, whatever. And then at the very end I put the line, I have finally stopped telling everyone that I graduated first in my law school, because I'm like really embarrassed at like how hard I've hit that in my life, but also I'm not quite ready to let it go.
So I'm like, okay, this is my interim step.
[00:28:06] Heather Lowe: Oh my God. That's so, I want to add like, and she won the 6th grade spelling bee to my,
[00:28:10] Christie O. Tate: I know, I was just going to say, if you, if you have a website, I really think the spelling bee cred should go on there, it should be a bullet point.
[00:28:18] Heather Lowe: Spelling bee champ, 1989 or something, right?
[00:28:23] Christie O. Tate: Yes. I love that for you. Um, my definition of perfectionism is. Let me see if I can think about the words. Okay. I actually think for me, it has outlived its usefulness as a tool for me. So pure perfectionism, like striving for excellence, doing my best, sign me up. But perfectionism is for me, it's a kind of striving that takes no account of human limitations, vulnerabilities, and relationships.
And I just made that up, so let's fact check that, but it seems like it's pretty good, right?
[00:29:01] Heather Lowe: That's amazing. That is an incredible definition that you just came up with on the fly. That is Truly beautiful. Obviously you're a miraculous writer that you could just do that.
[00:29:12] Christie O. Tate: Thank you. Well, I think a lot about this.
[00:29:14] Heather Lowe: It's outgrown itself. I love how you gave it a little bit of credit for being, um, a coping tool or a protector or what you thought was a helper until you knew better.
[00:29:27] Christie O. Tate: Yeah. . I feel like that about all I guess we'll say my character defects are all, all my mistakes are all my mistaken roads.
, I didn't just one day pick up, you know, toxic eating traits or body dysmorphia. I didn't, I didn't just pick that up on a whim. It served a function. It helped me survive in an environment that I didn't pick and I didn't make. And I was a disempowered child and. I'm not that anymore, so that's a wonderful thing, but I don't know, I just feel like every character aspect that I .
I took to the nth degree till it became a toxic thing. I feel like I can't regret it because it helped me. It brought me full circle back to more gentleness and humanity and vulnerability.
[00:30:20] Heather Lowe: I love that. Yeah. I think our prior selves are just all like Russian nesting dolls.
[00:30:23] Christie O. Tate: Yeah.
[00:30:24] Heather Lowe: Oh yeah. I love every piece of that.
I love my before pictures as much as my after pictures because the before is the person that made the choice. To do something different. It wasn't a shiny after picture that did that. It was that person in the hole in the darkest, deepest hole that took the first step out. Right. So I love her. She's bloated and sad and I love her.
She did that. So yeah,
[00:30:50] Christie O. Tate: She was bloa-ted.
[00:30:51] Heather Lowe: Oh yeah. She was so bloated. But also I think like, um, I always say like the first half of my life was surviving and now the second half of my life is kind of like undoing all those things that I did to survive. Right. I got this more enlightened awakened state, um, like you're calling them character defects, but to just coping skills, right.
[00:31:13] Christie O. Tate: Yeah.
[00:31:14] Heather Lowe: Of sorts that you came up with and now you're learning some better ones. So, um, If you're like me, like how do you go like perfectionism? People would say like, are you perfect or does that mean you're perfect? I would say like, no, I'm not, I would never be perfect enough for my own standards. Right.
But that would be the goal. Like I want my house perfectly clean and I love my kids to be as perfect as possible. Right. My husband always work in progress. Right. So yeah, self never good enough. And you're suggesting The shift is like towards more messiness and more emotionally, physically, I'm sure all of it.
Right. But like, how do you start to make that transition? What were some first steps you did?
[00:32:02] Christie O. Tate: I think some of the first steps for me were thinking really about my values and my priorities. Because a lot of times what perfectionism did was it, it prioritized the wrong things. My values. are truly about and I had to get clear about this are relationships and connecting with people and being present and And there's lots of ways in which perfectionism interfered with that.
So the first thing would be like, I too, like I would love to have a house that's neat as a pin and everyone shuts the cabinet doors and loads the dishwasher the way that I want them to. I would love that. And a more important thing is how is this family functioning? How, how, are the relationships in this family?
Do people feel like their feelings are supported? And it, it, it would be easier to teach them just to do the dishwasher things.
It is much harder and more inconvenient and scarier to me to sit down with my children and say, how are you feeling about what's going on here? Or You know, like if, I mean, there's conflict all the time, I have two teenagers, you know, and did you feel heard?
Is there something I'm not seeing? Do you feel like, what do you need from me? Do you need something from me that you feel like you're not getting? Those conversations are really, really scary. And they, they often have to take the place of like, gettin' the house in order, right? Like it's only so many hours in a day.
, are we going to work on the insides or the outsides? Right? Right. Right. So priorities, when I really committed to relationships being the priority, that really put it all in perspective because Relationships and perfectionism were on two different ends of a pole for me.
And taking the time and going slowly and listening takes time. And that means, you know, maybe you're not gonna, I'm not gonna write the greatest legal briefs. Or I'm not going to like get my 1, 000 words in for the day. But I am going to be a present person for the relationships in my life.
[00:34:19] Heather Lowe: that's a huge measurement of success.
That's a huge shift. I'm thinking about probably like a reel or a meme or something where the mom before company is like storming around the house, screaming, vacuuming, cleaning, like probably vacuuming the curtains or like organizing the junk drawer all of a sudden because people are coming and just screaming at her family.
That would be me. And I'm thinking about if your kid woke up on that day and you said, you didn't do the dishes or like who closed the kitchen last night, right? You clean up before you go to bed and then you wake up and somebody's been like, who closed? Um, screaming at your kid about people are coming.
Everything has to be in order without it saying, good morning. How are you?
[00:35:01] Christie O. Tate: Yes. Yes.
[00:35:03] Heather Lowe: Like checking in with your heart. today. And it's so much easier to just rage about the kitchen's not clean and we're having company. And then the other thing, if you ask your kid, what's up in a real way? And I have two teenagers too, totally get it.
What if they tell you and you don't have the answer? I bet we expect ourselves to be able to fix or like we're afraid to know because what if we don't know what to do with that information?
[00:35:31] Christie O. Tate: Yeah. That, that conversation or what you just said reminded me of another thing that's related to priorities is when I let go of the people pleasing perfectionism, you know, storm, one of the things that became really important.
Empowering and scary was figuring out what I really wanted, right? So there was work to be done. Like what did I, what did I truly want from myself? I was, if it wasn't just gonna be like shooting to the top of all the things, like what I, what did I truly want? And I'm thinking today, my husband came in to look at this new website.
I hadn't really shown it to him. And he's a very analytical person. He's not. super touchy feely. So if you show him something, he's going to find all the flaws and that's just how his brain works. And so I'm, I didn't make this, somebody else made this. So he's, he's saying, well, what about this? I think this is too far left.
I think you want a space here. He's going real deep. And I, I felt myself getting mad. Like, Oh my God, he's so critical. Even though I summoned him into my office to give me his feedback, right? And, and so I had a whole thing in my head. I was like, wait, he's taking time out of his day to truly engage. He wants this to be the best thing possible.
And he is being really critical and he has much more critical eye than I do. And he finished talking and I took a breath and I was like, thank you. I was like, could you also please say two very specific things that you love about it. So instead of, I spent most of our marriage, we've been married like 16 years, I spent most of the time trying to get him to be a touchy feely, lots of cookies and lots of flower, like just give me all the praise and gooey gooey, which is not how he is.
So instead, I was able to receive the gift of what he offers, like he made the website better and I have notes for my designer. And I said to him, can you tell me two specific things? And then when he was like, Oh, thank you, because that doesn't come naturally to him. But I asked for what I wanted. I wanted to hear him praise it.
And what he thought really worked. And then I didn't have to change him, but I asked for what I wanted. And I, I didn't know how to do that for the first like decade of my marriage.
[00:37:58] Heather Lowe: Asking for what you want, asking for what you need, knowing what it is, recognizing what's happening inside of you as he's saying this, hearing the story you're telling yourself, because he also might be thinking.
Everything about this is perfect. And here's a couple tweaks that we need to make, right? I love it. I think it's amazing, but you already know that. So I'm going to show you the areas for improvement.
A hundred
[00:38:20] Christie O. Tate: percent.
[00:38:21] Heather Lowe: Yeah. recognizing it. Asking for it. That's huge. And you know what? He was so happy to give it back.
Right. My husband too. He doesn't know how to do those things, but when he gets some guidance, when I tell him what I need, that works so much better than he knows, you know? Shame on him for not reading my mind, obviously, but you know, it really, he wants, they want to be helpful. They want to love you in the way we want to be loved. Their love language is different, right?
He's like, I went to the store. I thought you already knew that. Or, you know, I did this or that. And that would be, I gave you a hug today. And I'm like, ew, you know, you know what I mean? Did you mow the lawn? It's the thing,
[00:39:03] Christie O. Tate: Right, right, exactly.
[00:39:07] Heather Lowe: So, wow. Asking for what you want, recognizing what you need, allowing yourself to get it and then receive it.
You allowed yourself to receive that too, which I'm guessing has not always been easy for you to receive. to have a need and then to receive, you know, meeting that need in whatever way, including love.
[00:39:25] Christie O. Tate: Yeah, that's the, the receiving is a hard thing. It is a very hard thing. And I'm just grateful. That's just more of the mess, right?
Like the feeling that I get when people offer me the things I say I want. I could sit here and tell you I want unconditional love, I want people to show up for me, I want people to, you know, have my back, all those things. And I do have people in my life like that. And sometimes when it, gushes or it comes at me or there's moments where I get to receive, I feel so afraid.
It's very vulnerable to receive. I'd rather be a giver. I'd rather give it, you know. Um, but that's also Obviously imbalanced. So I'm getting better at receiving and breathing and recognizing the discomfort is a good thing. Not all discomfort needs to be fixed and, you know, washed away. Some of it is like, Oh, I'm growing.
I'm taking something in. I'm absorbing a new, a new, Beam of goodness from someone who loves me it's kind of uncomfortable. And thank God, you know, I can tolerate that. I want the results of that.
[00:40:38] Heather Lowe: Mm-hmm, ,
the full human experience. I think that's, I think that's key too, that perfectionism goes along with emotions.
That you're only supposed to have certain feelings, only certain feelings are perfect, and to have other feelings. are not perfect, and we got to do away with those versus letting ourselves feel that full human experience. And that's the eating. That's the stuffing for me. Yeah. Drinking, numbing, ignoring, right?
[00:41:04] Christie O. Tate: Yeah, totally. 100%.
[00:41:06] Heather Lowe: So, , how do you temper yourself now, because you do, you are highly achieved, you do get, continue to get accolades, I mean, you do from me, just today. How did you pick up with like, with like the, um, goal setting for yourself, and like rewarding yourself. You know, how do you let your, the highs and the lows, how do you balance that now when you're recovering perfectionist?
[00:41:33] Christie O. Tate: Yeah, that's such a good question. And I would love any insight you have about that. But one of the things that I found has been really, really important is every day I need time to myself for, I mean,, I do morning pages every day, which is the three handwritten pages. I do the Julia Cameron artists way.
And I find that the quiet time with myself to be where all the noise from the outside world, good, bad, indifferent, directed at me, having nothing to do with me. I do so much better when I just take some time to, in, in those morning pages, what I do is I have gratitude for all the blessings in my life. I do plenty of complaining, turning over and complaining, but also getting very still and quiet.
So I can hear my own intentions and that otherwise, especially having a public life from publishing books and essays and all the things that a writer's life involves, I will not survive if I'm on the hook of external validation. I just, my first book shot out of a cannon. We didn't think, the editor was like, nobody knows you.
We just hope it does well through word of mouth. And I was like, awesome. Great. I'm a lawyer. This is a dream come true. Then Reese Witherspoon gets my book, she puts her name on it, and it goes a million times farther than any of us thought it would. And it was a very dizzying experience. Wonderful. I mean.
I treasure it, but also that wasn't the end of the story. Like I had the rest of my life to live and like more work I want to do. And I published a second book that had a very different reception, a very different experience. And that was looking back now. That was what taught me that I've got to get quiet.
I've got to find. The river inside of me, the why, the, the reason, the intention, all of that has to be between me and my quiet self and my own higher power because the outside world doesn't care about Christie Tate. It's doing its thing. It's capitalism. It's, it's, it's not going to care for me. I have to care for myself and I have to build a world , that's outside of that. Like my friend, Debbie, she always uses the metaphor of a garden. And so I have a garden and my books and my creative work, those are my, my hydrangeas, right? But I also have to have tulips and box ferns, and I don't know that many kind of flowers, so I'm going to run out here, but to have lots of things that way.
And when I'm having a low moment with writing or I have a disappointment or a rejection or something doesn't come through, I have a really big garden so that I can weather that. I can weather that disappointment, whatever it is, in any area of my life, because internally, I'm strong, I'm solid, and my reason to exist doesn't depend on rankings or, you know, attention from Reese Witherspoon or anybody else in the world.
Like I've had to fight really hard for that quiet place inside myself that is inviolate.
[00:45:03] Heather Lowe: That is so beautiful. I love it. Same. I, I can't hear myself when I'm surrounded by other people because I'm a natural caregiver, like you, a mother, I'm worried about, is everybody else happy? Um, have I met everybody else's needs?
So yeah, I go to the woods. And I take a walk and I go through every stage of emotion and that while I'm laughing, I'm crying, you know, I'm looking like a crazy person as I'm stomping and marching and sitting and crying and just hearing, hearing the sound of my own voice and paying attention to me, that kind of grounding.
And that's so beautiful because I tell my clients, this is a surprise to most people, but it's your job to take care of yourself. It is truly, it's your only job, and it's not your husband's job, and it's not your mom's job, and it's not your daughter's job, and it's not your friend's job. It is your job to take care of yourself, and it's But they're supposed to do this and that for me.
No, you're supposed to do this and that for you, right? So we learn how to take care of ourselves. And then we have to hear ourselves and know what our needs are and figure out ways to get them met. And that's what you're doing. That's what you've done. And that's really beautiful. And yeah, that you're that internal compass.
Is the measurement. It's not how many times you can get on Reese Witherspoon's list, although I read this book way before it was ever on any list. Oh my God.
[00:46:30] Christie O. Tate: Well, thank you.
[00:46:30] Heather Lowe: I like your second book, too. I definitely like your second book, too. And to keep going with your art, right? And let it be your own personal journey and writing for yourself.
In your own therapy, in your own excitement and entertainment versus what's everybody gonna think. I mean, being in like a public role like that, how interesting that what does everybody think gets a little bit bigger.
[00:46:53] Christie O. Tate: Yeah, it definitely got very, very loud. And, , I'm grateful that I had enough people around me that were like, you need to find some quiet, you know, deep inside of you that is just, unfettered silence that can't be batted about by, you know, or snuffed out by external things.
[00:47:15] Heather Lowe: Right. And those are always going to change. You go from zero to hero in a second. So steadiness within yourself. So beautiful. Um, when, when we first started, you said like, as a mother, I'm this, as a career person, I'm this. What society or cultural expectations do contribute to this pressure, especially for women to be perfect.
Right. In every way in every role.
[00:47:40] Christie O. Tate: Yeah, I think there's so many. I think what's top of mind for me right now is the beauty industry. Like, I'm, I guess I'm watching I'm a teenage daughter who has earned some money at a summer job and Has access to social media and so there's all these products and she feels like she "needs" them and her friends all buy them and I'm just watching, I'm watching them like spend their money and their time and their energy on products and They're, they're getting the message they need thing because it's not okay.
You got to have a lip pumper and serums and tonics and whatever's and I'm, I'm watching it starts there in the grips of it. Right. And we had our own versions. It just looked different in the eighties when I was growing up. So I think there's a whole, I mean, capitalism is just set up. craving, right?
Like you've got to have by the time I get my wardrobe set, the trends change and it's time to get, it's time to get now the skinny jeans or the wide leg jeans. So there's this pressure from society around for women, around beauty and fashion, have the right thing. And, and also I think there's Weirdly, pressure from like this, the idea of the wellness community, I am also supposed to perfectly detach and use my voice and stick up for other women.
And it's like the laundry list of things I'm supposed to do. There's the nefarious, like get Botox and dye my hair and, you know, have the right clothes. We all know that's suspect and we give into it to varying degrees depending on our, um, Money and our time or whatever or insecurity, but then there's also like this wellness industry That's like you're supposed to be peaceful.
You're supposed to go to yoga. You're supposed to not listen to culture It's like, what? Like all of this is true... in one scroll I can get ten contradictory messages and the motherhood stuff -- It's so subtle and so pervasive. A friend of mine said to me the other day, she had taken her children who were roughly my kid's age, like freshmen in high school, freshmen, seventh grade, or she took her kids to a friend's house and they had a kitten.
And her son grabbed the kitten and was like loving it. And he said to her, I don't think I've ever I've ever seen a kitten before. They're not a pet owning family. And she was like, Oh, I was like, what kind of a mother am I that my kid's never seen a kitten? And I'm like, Oh my God, like my kids have never seen a kitten.
We're not kitten people. We don't live on a farm. Where am I going to get a kitten? You know, like, and I was just like, there's no rock that we can overturn that doesn't have a judgment that we will just indict ourselves because we've been taught that like, give your kids freedom, but not too much freedom.
Give your kids. It's like, it's everywhere. I mean, you must feel this too. This is not, I'm not, these are not hot takes by any stretch, but I do find what's most troubling to me now is that there's this counterpressure from like, so- called wellness. We're supposed to be taking care of ourselves and, you know, watch, watch how much social media you get.
And this is a very tense time. There's a war in the Middle East. There's a troubling election coming up. So take care of yourself. But also, uh, Be a good citizen. Stay involved. It's a privilege just to drop out of paying attention. So how do I, how do I be a good feminist? How do I be a good person with privilege who uses her privilege to help people who don't have it and take care of myself and go to Pilates?
Like how? Yeah. And then I've got to somewhere come up with a kitten by dinnertime and I've got to cook, you know, so what?
[00:51:40] Heather Lowe: And you got to cook the right meal.
[00:51:42] Christie O. Tate: Right. And it's got to be, and it's got to be heart healthy, but also it's got to be delicious and
[00:51:48] Heather Lowe: gluten-free
[00:51:48] Christie O. Tate: sustainable and whatever. And so I just find that. As a person , I do want to do right.
I want to do right by my family, by myself, by my community, by the world at large. I want to be someone who's not just doing it right, but of course I do want to be doing it right. But I also like, I'm, I'm one person. I have some resources. I have some energy. I have some talent. Where do I put all of that?
To the best use the best and highest use, you know, like, I don't know the answer that like I was signing up for some things to help with the election coming up, like just to just to foster democracy. Right. And I'm like, is this good for the am I going to be resentful that I gave up my writing time? Like, how many hours do I give to this?
I don't want to look back and know that I did nothing. So I do want to participate. But I'm doing the calculus of how much Without giving myself away and without neglecting the work that is mine to do, but still participating in my community. I mean, if you have the answers, I want to hear them.
[00:52:56] Heather Lowe: I think you're already doing it. I mean, I think being on this podcast, your voice will be heard. Sharing openly and honestly, this message will be heard. I think anybody that lays eyes on your books, or maybe they get it on audio. Your message is heard. I think you have a huge ripple effect in what you're already doing.
You can absolutely first recognize that it's already, this fancy new website is going to reach more and more. And as long as you keep being true to yourself and true to your craft and growing those hydrangeas alongside the roses, you are already doing it. You're doing it as a parent. You're doing you the work within you that you're sharing it.
I mean, and you're that you are Sharpening your gifts and skills to the best of your ability. And then you, the way your talents are, you share it, right? You give it away. You're writing that is that moves. It's moved me. It's moved many, many people. You're already doing it and you can volunteer your time for the election or this or that, but also how do we do it?
Just woman to woman in our interactions. How do we support other women? How do we say I'm showing up messy and perfect today? So can you. You know, how can we just start to bring the conversation real to say, let's, let's lower the bar, let's let kids, let's not judge when that kid has never seen a baby kitten before, you know, probably, you know, it's like a country kid, a city kid.
They probably seen the 18th floor of something, somewhere a country kid has never seen a skyscraper, right? Like maybe, maybe that's okay. Maybe we don't judge that mom. And maybe we don't judge ourselves.
[00:54:33] Christie O. Tate: Yeah, I do think judgment is a huge part of the mechanisms that keep me stuck. Judgment of myself and others and imagined judgments that I think are coming from other people.
It's like, I don't know. I don't know how much of that is real or not real, but I do know I am interested in letting go of that because it's heavy. It's heavy to carry judgments.
[00:54:58] Heather Lowe: Yeah, and it's, you're, it's always pointing the finger at yourself. It's, it's the not enoughness and not good enoughness. And when you say like, I want to be right, I want to be right and good.
And I think, isn't that just beautiful? And aren't you already just because you have that desire? Of course you are.
[00:55:15] Christie O. Tate: Yeah, I hope so. I, first of all, It's very clear. You're very good at your job as a coach.
I feel like I'm getting some free coaching right here. It's awesome..
[00:55:26] Heather Lowe: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean that is hopefully everyone has that within them and they just need somebody to give permission to recognize it, right?
[00:55:35] Christie O. Tate: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's true.
[00:55:38] Heather Lowe: But also, I mean, how do we be these people? I mean, I do. I want the Pinterest outfit and the house and the craft and the, and the salary and the picture and the holiday card and the, I do have those desires and that's okay too. Right? Like, sorry, I'm perfect. Sorry. I'm not perfect.
[00:55:58] Christie O. Tate: I know. I know. I mean, it's never going to be fully eradicated, right? Like, I mean, we're talking about having a barbecue for this weekend and I'm like, okay, which day, you know, what do I need to, you know, I, I want to project a certain, I mean, it's beyond just cleaning the house, you know? So I think that's always, that's just a part of my heartbeat, but I don't have to let it, you know, tyrannize me or run the show.
[00:56:24] Heather Lowe: Yeah. Okay. Let it, you hear it alongside you. It's humming alongside
you.
Yeah. Cause it just is, but also I think going to your values and I want to say you, you have a very good therapist, um, even though there's someone to blame all the time, but did you do value work with a therapist or how did you do your values work?
It's also something you could do with a coach, but like to recognize what are my values and how do I live to my values? And then I see perfectionism in a different way. Right. Like it's, um, like the relationship is the value, not the clean kitchen. Like we talked about where did you do that kind of work?
[00:56:58] Christie O. Tate: Yeah, I definitely did that.
I did that work in therapy probably also in 12 step, but I remember one time I'd probably been seeing Dr. Rosen, who was the subject of Group, one of the subjects of Group, my first memoir, I had probably been seeing him maybe a year and I, it was a Friday and I was supposed to have dinner with some friends.
I was in law school. They had just announced something like who was going to be on the law journal. And this was like a big insider baseball law school thing. And, um, I was meeting my friend Kelly and her husband and I wasn't going to have time to exercise. And this I want to tell you was a problem that I felt the need to call my therapist and say, I'm at work and I had a little part time job.
I'm at work. I can't leave. We're supposed to have dinner at this neighborhood and I'm not going to have time to exercise. Can you call me back? I mean, my God, what the hell? Um, can you imagine having such a needy patient? And for some reason he must have had a light day. He didn't always call me back, but he did call me back.
And he was like, Uh, congratulate, like I had gotten a place on the law journal board and he said, congratulations. Have fun at dinner with your friends. I was like, but, but did you hear, did you hear I'm not going to be able to exercise? He's like, maybe you are beginning to understand that people are more important than exercise.
And it
was like, the fact, I was 28 years old and someone had to tell, I had to pay someone to tell me that because I needed to hear it. I don't know what to say. I needed to hear it. And something went off in my head like, Oh, I'm supposed to go to dinner. and blow off my workout... I'm not, I'm not a triathlete. I'm not like paid. I don't work for Nike.
I'm not paid to work out. It was just something that I do and I would get back on it the next day. And so the value work really was like tolerating the anxiety of letting go of like my plan and my little, what I think I should do and what I plan to do. Letting that go, feeling a little anxious and googly, and then going to dinner with Kelly and her husband.
And I remember that dinner and I remember having, A wonderful time and not missing the exercise, but I needed help to get out the door and go the right place, not to the gym, but to dinner.
[00:59:22] Heather Lowe: It was an emergency. I mean,
[00:59:24] Christie O. Tate: that was 911 back in the day.
[00:59:26] Heather Lowe: That was emergency phone call. I love that. So good. It happens with my clients.
They have, they typically have homework after a call and we come up with it together. And then their next meeting, you know, what went well and they're like, Oh, Well, I didn't do the thing and I say, Oh, well, what happened? And they say, Oh, well, my special needs son had an issue that morning and this, and I say, Congratulations.
It sounds like you had your priorities in order. Right. And they're like, you like would expect to be scolded that you would never be, I would never scold anybody, first of all, but that's what your expectation is. Right. You're a bad student. You're going to get an F on your paper. And when I say congratulations, they're like, I'm like, that's a, that's perfect.
You did the right thing. You made the right choice. You had your right priority in order. So this thing that we're working on, you know, your son in that urgent matter is way more important. So good job, mom.
[01:00:17] Christie O. Tate: Absolutely, yeah.. That's great..
[01:00:19] Heather Lowe: So we got to learn to flex on those things. And that also goes against our perfectionism and our perfect plan that we made right for our perfect
how
this agenda is going to go, how everyone's going to have fun because we said so damn it.
[01:00:31] Christie O. Tate: Exactly. Exactly.
[01:00:34] Heather Lowe: Wow. Thank you. You have, you've given us everything today in this call. I learned so much. This is a topic that I'm obviously also working towards recovering from every day, perfectionism, people, pleasing, being authentic, being vulnerable, not being who we think we're supposed to be showing up real selves, flexing with ourselves, hearing our values.
All of it. I appreciate you and your time. It matters so much to me. It's such great work. And I'm so thrilled that the rest of the world is going to be able to hear it. Any final thoughts that you want to share before we go?
[01:01:08] Christie O. Tate: No, I think I just want to say thank you to you and thank you again for the work that you do.
And I really appreciate it. I appreciate knowing that there's sober communities and people who are coming together to work on the things that have troubled me and for which I'm always looking for solutions and I really believe they happen interpersonally. So thank you for giving us another avenue to think about this.
[01:01:33] Heather Lowe: Thank you so much, Christie.
[01:01:35] Christie O. Tate: Thank you.
[01:01:38] Heather Lowe: and that's a wrap for today's episode of the Peripeteia podcast, a talk show for women.
The Peripeteia podcast is sponsored by Sunnyside. I could not ask for a better partner. Thanks, Sunnyside!
Join us in the insider community with a seven day free trial to continue the conversation at ditchedthedrink. com. And don't forget to download my free ebook, The 12 Truths to change your life. Do it for the plot. \ , We'll see you in the next episode. Lots of love. .
