Dr. Brooke Scheller on Nutrition, Sobriety, and Holistic Health
[00:00:00] Heather Lowe: Hi, babes. Listen up. You landed here at the Parapatea podcast, and I'm so glad to have you enjoy these real girl talk conversations about the things that matter. From the ordinary to the extraordinary, and every plot twist in between, I welcome you. Life has a way of throwing us curveballs, and these are the stories of female resilience while navigating change with newfound purpose.
This is Peripeteia. I'm so glad you're here. Let's embark on this journey together. Here we go!
Welcome Peripeteia podcast listeners. I'm so excited. I have Dr. Brooke Scheller on our podcast today. Dr. Brooke Scheller is a doctor of nutrition. She hosts, sobriety membership meetings, and she's an author of a book, How to Eat to Change How You Drink. And she's also a friend of mine. So I'm so happy to have you on Brooke.
Thank you for being here.
[00:01:39] Dr. Brooke Scheller: Heather, thank you so much for having me. I'm, I'm excited to have this conversation. I always love spending time with you. You are just like such a bright light in every room and the people who are listening know that and that's why they keep coming back to your podcast. So I'm thrilled to be here today too.
[00:01:53] Heather Lowe: Yay. Awesome. So in full transparency, I don't know if this is the third or fourth. Or something time we've tried to schedule this podcast because things came up this or that we have rescheduled life has happened. Life has gotten lengthy for both of us. And when we finally got on, um, uh, video call to record a couple months ago, it was like we were not in the right space to do it.
And we both recognize that. And we both took care of ourselves and we decided to reschedule. And I'm so proud of that. I'm so proud of us because we really wanted to bring our best for this conversation. And we also wanted to be honest and we wanted to have the right energy for the conversation that we're going to have.
So, and we also wanted to be transparent and honest about what was happening in both of our lives. So, um, thanks for returning. Thanks for being back. And, um, thanks for saying yes, that today is going to work for both of us. And here we are, can you share a bit about your personal journey with, um, with wellness, with sobriety and what, and nutrition and what led you to pursue this as a career?
[00:03:00] Dr. Brooke Scheller: Yeah. So. I'm so, so glad we made this happen to Heather. I think we could have probably many a conversation as it relates to wellness and sobriety and the overlap there and the, uh, the underlap maybe that exists to have a lack of, of insight in the wellness space on alcohol. But my journey is interesting.
I mean, you know, a little bit about it. You've read the book, you know, me a bit. And, um, you know, I never anticipated that sobriety was going to be. This important in my life and would be part of my life's purpose because I was a really heavy drinker for a really long time. And so many people that come into sobriety or exploring alcohol free living, um, there's a range of experiences that we all have.
Some of us are heavier drinkers. Some of us are more of those weekend warriors, but I think many of us come into this, um, because we want to feel better. We want to feel our best. We want to do our best. We want to, um, improve our health and the way we feel and our relationships. And I think there's a huge overlap with wellness and the reasons that people explore changing their nutrition and exercising.
Um, we want to feel better. We want to look better. We want to be better people. , and so what's really interesting is, you know, I, I completed all of my training, um, bachelor's, master's doctorate in nutrition. Background in functional medicine, all while being someone who was a heavy drinker and, , you know, I was, I was quite high functioning in that regard, but at the same time, you know, it wasn't very apparent to me how much alcohol was affecting my health.
physical health, my mental health. Um, and it wasn't really apparent to me even through my training about how impactful alcohol was on our health and is on our health and wellness. And I think it's a big missing piece of the puzzle. You know, when I Quit drinking alcohol, June of 2021. I, you know, went along the traditional paths, uh, you know, exploring 12 step programs and things like that.
And I was a few months sober when I had started following influencers on Instagram, people like you, Heather, and many others that we both know and. One thing that was quite apparent to me is we were talking about all of these really critical components of sobriety, like addressing mental health, um, getting counseling or therapy, attending meetings, or finding community, and something that was really missing for me was the health piece of it.
Uh, you know, my background in nutrition and functional medicine says that there's a root cause for everything. And so, if I'm someone who has cravings for alcohol, or I've struggled with, you know, not being able to put down a drink, or struggled with my mental health, well, why is that? And so, I felt this really big need to enter the space and start talking about the impacts to the microbiome, the impacts to nutrients and deficiencies that can cause.
Fatigue can cause anxiety, depression, a slew of other health concerns, right? And so it kind of became my mission to bring forth an approach to sobriety, to alcohol free living that centered and focused around nutrition and wellness. And that's kind of the long story short of, I was three months sober when I had the idea to write this book.
And, you know, Because the universe works in mysterious ways that you know that path opened up for me and really has allowed me to utilize my expertise and my experience professionally with this very personal journey of mine, and it's been super rewarding for many reasons, including getting to meet a lot of awesome people like you, Heather.
[00:06:46] Heather Lowe: Yeah, that's awesome. So I've said it before, I'll say it again. I was a skeptic of your book to start and you completely won me over. So I'm a big fan, five star review, absolutely recommend everybody read it. I was afraid it was going to be preachy and don't tell me what to eat, what not to eat. You know, I had fears of like, I'm ditching the drink, let me eat candy, you know, um, don't drink, don't smoke.
What do you do kind of, um, a skeptic about it, and you were honest and you were vulnerable and you left room for flexibility and you also taught, you know, there was a lot to learn and there was ways to make shifts. And I like it that nutrition is not a form of punishment. It was a way to support what you're already doing, a way to support yourself in your sober journey, a way to support yourself in your life, a way to love yourself in so many ways.
So, I, I totally love and recommend that book when you were going through your training as a drinker as a young girl going through college and drinking was alcohol part of that training or was it something you started to seek out when you made a personal connection with your own alcohol and then alcohol free journey?
[00:07:56] Dr. Brooke Scheller: You know, what's really interesting to me is part of the reason why I was interested in nutrition to begin with is because in my late teens, early twenties, my family, several family members were experiencing addiction, mental health concerns, and I found it really interesting when I started learning about the fact that nutrition and, you know, certain nutrients, for example, play a role in brain health and mood health.
Um, and so I've, I've kind of always been interested in this. And what's interesting is my first job out of college, out of my bachelor's in nutrition, I worked specifically in weight loss and we, I worked for a doctor and a couple of other gals who we had, um, a specific protocol set up for people to lose weight.
And. You know, the, the ladies and gentlemen that I worked with would lose weight, uh, they'd step on the scale every week, they'd be following their plan and they would be losing weight, but they would still be struggling with digestive issues and hormone issues and mood issues and fatigue issues. And I knew that nutrition could do more to help them, but I didn't know how.
So that kind of pushed me into wanting to do further training, went into a master's through, um, a school that, um, offered a more holistic type of training, more in that functional medicine kind of umbrella. And I started learning more kind of that in depth information. Now, unfortunately with, um, undergraduate nutrition training.
Uh, still to this day, it's very much following the USDA guidelines and kind of the government recommendations and, you know, drink three glasses of milk per day and follow the MyPlate recommendations. Um, so you don't really get a lot of the information about how to help someone with their gut health or how to, you know, uh, address nutrient deficiencies, et cetera, et cetera.
But in, in, uh, my further training, it got much deeper into that, which is why I kept going because I really loved learning that information. And here's the thing of, of 10 years of schooling on nutrition. I think we talked about alcohol a handful of times. Right. In the sense of, um, gosh, okay, well, you know, it's not good for you.
Maybe we talked a little bit about the nutrient deficiencies that can come with heavy drinking. Um, but, you know, we talked about how alcohol is maybe one factor that can contribute to gastrointestinal imbalances, but it isn't necessarily a topic that's really like, we don't spend a lot of time talking about the impacts of alcohol.
And what's really interesting to me. Is that, you know, that's all well and good for someone who isn't consuming a lot of alcohol and that's, you know, if the standard person is only consuming a little bit of alcohol in their lifestyle, then, yeah, maybe alcohol is not that big of a topic. But if someone's consuming alcohol daily, almost daily, several drinks at a time on each occasion, that's having much greater of an impact than just a few drinks here and there.
Right. And so what's really interesting to me is. You know, when I started thinking about the ways that alcohol affects all of these different body systems, it becomes really apparent that not only can alcohol create imbalances and concerns within our health and our organ systems, our gut, et cetera, but those imbalances can actually perpetuate the cycle of why we feel, like, yucky, and we want to.
Feel better. We look for something that's going to make us feel quote unquote better. And so we get caught in this cycle of not feeling good. We drink and then, you know, it perpetuates. So it's really interesting because we don't, we don't talk about it enough in the training that nutritionists or even medical doctors go through to today's day and age, but I think that a lot of that is changing and it's something that I feel really passionately about helping to support driving in the industry.
[00:12:07] Heather Lowe: It's so interesting to me. So tell me this. Is there anything else on what is it with the milk? First of all, okay. You don't have to answer that. That's always the doctor's answer. Do you drink milk? I don't know if my kids and with me now to, um, bone health or whatever it is, but what is the food pyramid?
Is there alcohol is an addictive substance and is there anything else? On that food pyramid, I'm thinking maybe sugar, but maybe that's not even categorized as a specific drug that like somebody would say, um, like, let's say a glass of red wine. A regular sized glass of red wine would be part of a healthy Mediterranean diet.
So having that one glass of wine at dinner would be, would, and all the antioxidants that's included in that, these things that we've read, is part of a healthy Mediterranean diet. When also, on the other hand, the Center for Disease Control says for a woman, more than seven drinks a week is heavy drinking.
So that's having that one glass of wine at dinner. To me, there's such a disconnect of that. So will you sell it as something that's potentially healthy? Is it on the food period? Is it part of nutrition? Is, is there a nutrient value and, or if somebody has a half a glass of wine once a month, I'm sure the body can rid itself of that.
But even having a glass a day might. Might be something to look at, and we, we typically don't call that kind of person a heavy drinker, right? They're not getting drunk, they're not falling over, they're not binging. Talk to me more.
[00:13:50] Dr. Brooke Scheller: Yeah, so this is a great question, Heather, and, um, it, it's tricky, right?
Because there's always been controversy over government. recommendations and, you know, industry ties and things like that. Um, you know, there's controversy over that with the milk and, you know, um, yes, milk has calcium. There are some folks that say that, um, it's acidic. So it actually is not the best source of calcium.
There's calcium in many of the other foods. By, uh, vegetables and things that we eat, um, that we don't necessarily need milk in order to do that. Um, about 70% of the population is dairy intolerant, um, or sensitive to dairy. So, uh, it's not ideal for everyone to be drinking it and. So there's, there's controversy there.
And I, I use that to answer your question, but to also share that there's controversy about other things like alcohol. There's big industry and big money behind alcohol. And, you know, when the original studies were done in the early nineties and the early two thousands, that started to show that there's maybe this potential benefit.
Of red wine in small amounts. Uh, what's interesting is if you look up the research or the charts that show the, the sales of red wine or sales of wine in the U. S. It shoots through the roof, right? After we have that 60 minutes episode in 1991 or two that said, Oh, there's maybe this potential benefit.
There's something called the French paradox that I write in the book, which is about how the French have a very low incidence of cardiovascular disease you. Even though they have a really high cholesterol diet, they eat a lot of dairy and cheese, but they also drink a lot of wine. So the suggestion was that maybe the wine is actually protective against, you know, these risk factors.
So there has been a series of studies that were done in those early days that said, okay, well maybe wine has these heart protective effects. What's really interesting is that since 2020, 2021, And up to current, there's actually a lot of new research that shows that no amount of alcohol is safe, that even that one glass of wine per day does not show any protective Benefits, and it actually has potential risk factors for cardiovascular health for brain health for gut, et cetera. And so what we see now in the government guidance and recommendations is reflective of old information. And the way that government guidance works is it's updated about every five years.
So every five years they release new dietary guidelines for Americans. Um, and sometimes they change, sometimes they don't. Um, the recommendation that we've had around alcohol as it stands today, that one drink or less per day for women, two drinks or less per day for men has been around for quite some time.
There's discussion right now because those guidelines are up for, um, Modification in 2025. And what we saw in 2022 was that Canada actually significantly shifted their guidance. Um, they suggest that anything over two drinks per week is putting you into a higher risk category. And then everything over anything over seven drinks per week is actually high risk.
And that is based on more of the recent research. So we may see the U. S. Guidance change in 2025. Um, it's a little uncertain as to where that's going to go right now, but the moral of the story here is that the most recent research that we have on alcohol's health effects is that there are no benefits.
Um, and again, it's a, it's a toxin, right? So the, the. Suggestion was that, you know, um, perhaps it helps with vasodilation and blood flow through the vascular system. Um, perhaps there are these antioxidants that provide some type of protective effect, but the amount of antioxidants that you're getting in this one glass of red wine does not outweigh the risk of the ethanol, the molecule itself, which is alcohol that causes us to Feel tipsy or drunk.
Um, so it's a little bit confusing and I talk a lot more about this in the book. Um, that whole like, well, wait, wait, wait. I thought this was good for me. I thought I was doing a good thing for myself. And before I know it, you know, I'm having a whole bottle or, you know, I'm waking up with a hangover. And, and I think most of us can recognize that that's usually past the point where there is.
benefit.
[00:18:38] Heather Lowe: Absolutely. So tell us more about how to use nutrition to feel better.
[00:18:45] Dr. Brooke Scheller: Yeah. Well, Heather, you brought up something when you, you mentioned my book, which is that, you know, my goal was to be as approachable as possible. You know, I get asked all the time about intermittent fasting and keto diets and, you know, all these different kinds of like popular diets and trends and things.
And It's really not necessarily about that at all. Um, we're already eating three times a day, somewhere around three or four times a day, maybe. And if we can just be a little bit more selective with the foods that we're eating, it can actually play a really, really important role in cravings, in our mood, in our energy.
And You know what? What became really apparent to me and starting to do this work is is just that it doesn't need to be, you know, trendy and something that you do for a short period of time, and there's people who say things like, you know, well, you shouldn't be going sober and, you know, dieting and exercising all these things all at once because it's it's too much, right?
It's transfer addiction or whatever it might be, but it's not about that at all, right? My goal is to provide you with super simple recommendations of things like increasing your protein content and Consuming more frequent meals throughout the day bringing in certain fruits and veggies that can have really high nutrient density and start to replenish some of the nutrients that you might be lacking and So, you know, it's it's not about this kind of all or nothing dieting approach, but it's that um You know, one of the things that you also mentioned, Heather, is my goal was really to educate with the book.
So I talk about the gut. I talk about blood sugar and hormones. I talk about the brain and nutrient deficiencies. And one thing that's really fascinating to me is around blood sugar. We hear a little bit about blood sugar in today's day and age as it relates to things like diabetes or prediabetes. Can you hear those sirens?
So we talk about blood sugar in relation to things like diabetes or prediabetes. We don't necessarily talk about blood sugar enough right now about how it affects our energy, how it affects our mood. And one of the challenges is that when we drink on a regular basis, It can have an effect on our ongoing blood sugar regulation.
This is part of why alcohol intake can increase the risk of diabetes and some of those other health concerns. But it is also because we often experience more hypoglycemic episodes or low blood sugar episodes because Alcohol or the ethanol can cause blood sugar to drop. And so what's interesting about that is a lot of folks who have a heavy alcohol use history experience these moments of low blood sugar and aren't aware that that's why they are feeling a craving, that that's why they're suddenly feeling fatigued.
They're suddenly feeling Really anxious or irritable. And so when it comes to blood sugar, there are a few really simple things that we can do in order to keep that more stable throughout the day. One is by making sure every meal and snack contains protein that helps to stabilize or kind of elongate our blood sugars.
response, but we can also make sure that we're eating more consistently throughout the day. So how many of us get breakfast or get busy at work throughout the day and don't have lunch or don't eat anything in the afternoon. And then we get done with work and we're super stressed. And what do we do? We want to drink.
Well, if and what I've seen work with so many of the clients that I have worked with both in groups and one on one is by making sure every three or four hours they're having something to eat, but always having an afternoon snack, uh, between three and 5 p. m. Especially if you're someone who struggles with that afternoon craving, usually that afternoon craving is low blood sugar.
However, if you were to have something to eat, it will. For lack of a better word, cure that craving, because we're simply now giving you that sensation of feel good, of energy, of blood sugar coming back up, and a lot of times that, um, that craving in the afternoon is that low blood sugar, and so these are again some of the super simple ways that you can use nutrition to not having to buy fancy supplements, not having to, you know, try a trendy diet or anything like that, but really just bring in some of these principles of nutrition to support you.
[00:23:40] Heather Lowe: Your body is going to feel calmer when it has the nutrients it needs, and that's going to help you manage and navigate cravings coming. I do have a story like that. My clients will text me and, um, I'll send back a beautifully crafted text and they'll reply like, Oh, I just had a big glass of water. I'm good now.
Like I just had something to eat. Turns out I was hungry. And we all know, Hungry, angry, lonely, tired, bored, would add in. Um, and yeah, some of that twitchiness in the body and that craving could be solved with nutrition versus alcohol.
[00:24:15] Dr. Brooke Scheller: Well, and that's the thing is usually when we're having an intense craving and what that halt, you know, the hungry, angry, lonely, tired is, is talking about is it's your, your physiology, your body is needing something.
You're needing connection. You're needing food because your blood sugar is low. Um, you're possibly in a state of high stress. And so part of what I like to educate and talk to people about is just becoming more in tune with your body and your needs, right? Because for so long, if that, you know, the response or the reaction is to just like hit the the easy button hit the escape button or the escape hatch.
Um, we, we become really disconnected from what our body is actually telling us, right? Because all we are doing is we've now programmed our habit to say like, this is, this is, What I go to. And that alcohol
[00:25:10] Heather Lowe: is the solution for everything, really. Exactly.
[00:25:12] Dr. Brooke Scheller: I didn't have any other options. I didn't know any other options.
Exactly. And so part of this journey in sobriety or going alcohol free is like, okay, I'm feeling, what am I feeling right now? You know what? I'm hungry. Or, you You know what? I'm really cranky and I'm irritable. Um, what, what do I, maybe I need to call someone or maybe I need to go for a walk and get some sunshine, right?
So it's a big part of this journey is just getting back in tune with our body and what our body is telling us. If you're having an intense craving, that is your body sending you a signal. Right. The answer isn't have a drink. The answer is, well, what do I actually need right now? So it's, this is a part of our wellness, right?
This is a part of how we get more in tune with our own body and our needs.
[00:26:00] Heather Lowe: Right. Paying attention to ourself versus numbing ourself out. A lot of the reason why I drank was to not feel what I was feeling. So, um, yeah, definitely the journey of sobriety or freedom from alcohol is self discovery to recognize.
First, have awareness, recognize what you're feeling, and then figure out how you're going to take care of yourself and nutrition can be a tool to do that. Tell me, you brought up wellness and I want to get into that, but first I want to ask that this is something that bothers me about nutrition. Sometime it's like.
What is the intersection and you mentioned it when you first started talking like nutrition versus diet versus weight loss. And I think I bristle at the diet weight loss piece at times. Yeah. Right. So that turns me off from nutrition too. And sometimes nutrition is being sold. It's, it, it's actually talking about weight loss and diet.
It's calling it self nutrition, right. And like you said, like it's fasting. Good or bad. Is it individual? Does it matter? Can you tell me more about kind of the intersection of those words and what that means to you?
[00:27:08] Dr. Brooke Scheller: Yeah. So this is a great question. And I'll first comment to say and point to something that you, you called out, which is that it is individual.
Everybody's body is a little bit different. Um, we all have different genetics. We have different. nutrition habits. So the way that we eat, we have different, um, you know, other lifestyle factors that can influence our nutrient levels, how we eat, our stress, et cetera. So it is definitely individualized. And this is part of the reason why I, I work in groups with clients, but I also still work one on one with some clients where we do lab testing and we get more in depth into that person's body and their needs.
Um, And that's really helpful for people who have struggled with not knowing what's right for them. They've followed one of these trendy diets like intermittent fasting, and maybe they felt worse. Maybe they felt bad about themselves because they weren't, you know, losing weight, quote unquote, like they, you know, this, this person.
kind of raves that it can do for everyone. And that doesn't mean that there's something wrong with you or any of that, it just means that that's maybe not the right approach for your body, and we need to try something different. And I think the reason why so many of us bristle, because I bristle too at diet and weight loss, And, uh, and, and all of that is, is because we survived through the nineties and early two thousands where, you know, it was about slim fast.
It was about being as thin as possible. It was, um, you know, everything was kind of about diet and weight loss and now. Um, that is happening just with a, you know, a different branding, which is Ozempic and Mondaro and these other weight loss medications, which again are, um, you know, promising that kind of quick fix mentality that you can just drink these slim fasts, not have to do too much more, take this shot, not have to do too much more and have the body that you've always wanted.
And the thing about nutrition, um, and, and where it ties into wellness is. It's about lifestyle. It's about, you know, not necessarily seeking out quick fixes or, you know, these short term changes. It's more about adopting your lifestyle to support whatever those goals are. And, and it's about eating foods that are nutrient dense and good for you and not about, you know, counting calories.
When you eat more real whole foods, you don't have to worry about calories. Because, naturally, your body is going to say, Okay, wow, I've had enough chicken and broccoli now. It's really hard to overeat chicken and broccoli because it's high in protein, it's high in fiber, right? Whereas if we're eating a bunch of brownies, we can usually eat brownies forever because there's no protein, there's no, um, fiber, there's no nutrient density there that is providing that feeling of, of, uh, sustenance and satiety for us.
And so, you know, it's really about Connecting, again, to the basics. There's a lot of, like, shiny object syndrome happening in the nutrition and health space. And this happens a lot with supplements, too, right? How many of us have seen ads for the next best supplement that's gonna promise you all the energy and all this?
All you gotta do is take this for, you know, 300 bucks a month and it's gonna solve everything. Um, and so there's a lot of this shiny object syndrome and the reality is that it's usually the basics that we're missing. And if you implement the basics and those still aren't working, that's usually a sign to me that we might need to look a little bit deeper.
We might need to run some blood work and see if there are some nutrient deficiencies, or take a look at the gut and how you're digesting food. Um, and then that can give us a little bit more personalized information.
[00:31:07] Heather Lowe: Mm hmm. I love that. Thank you for bringing that up. Lifestyle. Definitely want to get into that.
But also, I think that the number on the scale has been used maybe as the only measurement of health success. Wellness and, and it's just simply not true. Um, there can be very healthy people that are having the right nutrients that come in all shapes and sizes, but for so long we've been sold some idea that some particular size or weight is.
Healthy and that may or may not be true and alcohol use disorders are often tied to disordered eating and a person could have an ideal weight and still be very unhealthy in a lot of ways, both physically and mentally. So addressing life's needs. Style and in the sober journey, we know this. It's more than addressing your drinking, it's addressing your approach to yourself, and that's why your book spoke to me because yes, it's about eating chicken and broccoli and getting protein, and it's also about learning to love yourself.
Like I said, not using food as punishment, not using the scale as punishment, eating food to help you feel good, recognizing what makes you feel good. giving yourself permission to feel good and starting to create a desire to want to feel good and to want to stay with yourself to not want to hit the escape hatch when it gets hard because we know that when we do that we're also missing out on all the joy you know so to live a holistic life a whole full life to be fully alive is to have all of it and we can eat foods that help us feel fully alive.
We can take the right supplements for us. We can take the right medication for us that might be appropriate to help us feel most alive and alcohol is the opposite. And eating a pan of brownies is the opposite. It is just coming out and dumbing down. Right. So if I ask you your definition of wellness, what would you say?
And do you like that word? Not like that word. I mean, I know it's like really used a lot. Tell me what you think about that.
[00:33:21] Dr. Brooke Scheller: Yeah, it's interesting because that's one of those like diet words to me in a lot of ways. It can mean a lot of different things to different people. You know, I think that ultimately what it means to me is it's kind of this all encompassing approach to our health.
It is, you know, it's focusing on nutrition, but it's also focusing on movement. It's also focusing on our mental health and stress relief. Techniques. Uh, it's also maybe focusing on skin care, you know, and that's where it kind of starts. You get these branches outward of these kind of different, um, you know, things that maybe are more or less connected to one another.
So it is kind of this, you know, blanket sentiment for health. Um, but I do think it's, it's recognizable by everyone. And so it's, you know, uh, kind of catch all term that can, uh, can hook a lot of people. But I do think that because of that blanket kind of approach, it doesn't necessarily, um, have any strict guidelines, right?
It's, it's different in that regard. And, you know, there can be wellness that is alcohol free, and there can be wellness that includes alcohol. And I know that's something that you and I have kind of talked about on a lot of occasions, Heather, is like, You know, I think, um, the wellness world is very hot right now, and it's kind of the new term, I think, that is the catch all, that is diet and weight loss and those things.
But it's also, um, you know, in some ways, helpful to the industry, that's a little confusing and a little vague.
[00:35:04] Heather Lowe: Yeah, and we know there's a very popular wellness influencer who over and over again is trying to promote alcohol. a small bit of alcohol as part of his wellness journey because he's, I love that he's been open and transparent, but because he struggled with completing a dry January, let's say, because he struggled with going a certain amount of time alcohol free.
And if you can't do that, You want to protect yourself. You want to defend it. I definitely did. But what you've said is there are no health benefits to alcohol. So, of course, informed consumption, people can do what they want. I'm guessing you still have a brownie every once in a while,
[00:35:45] Dr. Brooke Scheller: right? I do. Well, I'm gluten free, so I'll eat a gluten free brownie.
But you and I ate ice cream together. Cream together after we yelled for the ice cream Man, that one time in North Carolina. Yeah. So, you know, I love a good sweet, I, I'm, again, no, I'm chasing
[00:35:57] Heather Lowe: after that ice cream truck faster than you, Dr. Brooke .
[00:36:00] Dr. Brooke Scheller: I'll tell you that. I even write this in the book, right? Like, go have some ice cream.
Like I'm not the police. I I, right. I had pie last night, right? Gluten free pie that I made. So I, in no way does it need to be this black and white, this all or nothing. You have to be like 100 percent this way or that way. And, um, you know, again, it's finding out what works for your body. So even with, I don't eat gluten personally, that is because I feel better without gluten, but that's not to say that everyone should be gluten free, right?
Try it. See what happens. Um, and I think that this is the challenge with alcohol is because it was a quote unquote health food for so long that there are these potential health benefits. It gave a lot of people the agency to say, like, Oh, well, you know, this is part of a healthy lifestyle. And a lot of people say, well, you know, You know, it's about balance.
And, you know, the, the interesting thing, like you said about influencers or folks who are, um, you know, kind of defending alcohol, you did, I did as well. Um, you know, it took me to getting sober to actually realize the effects. Of this toxin on my body. And I think we can all kind of tell ourselves, like, talk ourselves in and out of anything.
But I also think that, um, in a lot of ways, there's, there's two things that are happening. One is that there is maybe some denial there around, you know, the, the true effects of alcohol. And I think in a lot of other regards, Some people are simply misinformed and they're not up to date on where the research is over the last couple of years.
They're not informed that there is this movement away from alcohol as part of a healthy lifestyle. And because it is an addictive substance, it makes it particularly challenging, um, for folks to just drop it, right? There's a lot of argument, and this is one that you and I went down a rabbit hole with on Instagram at one point, that You know, two things.
One is that, you know, enjoying a glass of wine around a table with friends brings joy and, you know, all that kind of stuff, or, you know, stress is bad for you. And so if this is helping you to minimize stress, then it's okay. And I would refute both of those things to say, you know, number one, what we know in the research is alcohol actually makes cortisol stress worse.
Um, so that is a misnomer. It makes you feel in the short term, like your stress is relieved, but over the longterm makes you less able to cope with and tolerate stress. And when it comes to, you know, the community element of drinking, I would challenge you to think, uh, you know, Why you can't have genuine connections and interactions with people without alcohol, right?
Alcohol does not have to be part of your dinner table, right? It's, it's one of those things that I think has connected people for a long time because it breaks down barriers and it helps people to loosen up and all of that. But it, I would challenge you to do those things without alcohol and see how it goes.
right? Because some of us have just done that for so long that we don't, you know, we don't realize we can still do that without alcohol being present.
[00:39:15] Heather Lowe: So, I mean, we could go on this
[00:39:16] Dr. Brooke Scheller: forever.
[00:39:17] Heather Lowe: Yeah. You and I have sat around a table a wonderful time together without alcohol. I would take it a step further even and say, if you have to dumb yourself down, if you have to numb yourself out, if you have to have alcohol to tolerate sitting around a table with your family and friends, question that.
[00:39:34] Dr. Brooke Scheller: Yeah, yeah, I agree with you, but I think it takes a lot of time to see that from a different angle, you know, when you're when you're wrapped up in it, and what's so interesting to me in in the wellness world to this is something I really like to remind people of is. You know, there's a lot of influencers and doctors and folks who are saying to, you know, eliminate all the toxins in your food, you know, buy only organic, filter your tap water, um, you know, get all of these other toxins out of your body and yet they still drink alcohol.
And again, it's been this kind of separate other than thing for all of this time. And if we want to think again about our health and our longevity and really truly improving our health in the way we feel, we need to address that piece that is alcohol.
[00:40:23] Heather Lowe: Yeah. And like you've mentioned, there's definitely the switch and ditch for your household products or what moisturizers you're putting on your body.
And then. Having a glass of wine in the bathtub, right, as if that's a separate issue, we have our alcohol for a long time. Also, um, not to get like political, but women have been served a drink and a pill forever. Right. People have been giving us pills to bring us up to bring us down to tune us out to dumb us down.
Forever. So that definitely seems like it just has evolved over the years into a different sort of substance, um, with the same goal, perhaps.
[00:41:03] Dr. Brooke Scheller: Yeah, and marketing plays a big role, right? It's, it's how it's portrayed in, in media. It's how it's portrayed in advertising. It's how it's portrayed in movies and TV, right?
That this is something that is going to help us make us look more glamorous, make us, you know, um, be a better parent or a better wife or girlfriend, or, you know, there's, there's definitely a particular, uh, women's. Image, but there's also a male image too. It's the tough guy. It's the, you know, into sports and all of those things too.
So, uh, and, and some of that is by design, right? I have a friend who, uh ha, who's an acupuncturist, who has a client. And that works in PR and a few years ago, she had shared with me that she was tasked with making beer cool again and getting beer back into movies and TV because it had moved toward a lot of wine beer sales have been down since the rise of seltzers.
And so this person's job was to literally go to TV and movies and all of that and get beer. Placed into those shows so that people would see it and then buy it. And so it is by design because these are big companies that are marketing their product, right? So they want it to be in your face. They want it to look cool and desirable, too
[00:42:30] Heather Lowe: Yeah, you know, the country music awards were on last night and I watched a little bit and they started with the song California Sober, which I thought with Post Malone and Chris Stapleton, which I thought was kind of interesting.
Then they made a joke about Jelly Roll not drinking anymore and kind of celebrating that for him, which was great. But then the joke was like, the not drinking sounds. terrible, like the worst thing ever. So, okay. Kind of making a joke of it. Fine. Sort of celebrating his success in sobriety. And then the next thing they were doing was toasting with red solo cups with alcohol.
And obviously every song was about alcohol and all of all those songs. I mean, tipsy bar song is one of my favorites, which is very off brand, but These definitely mixed messages. Like everybody drink drinking is good. Drinking is fun. Drinking is empowering. Drinking is all these things. Oh, unless you have a problem with it, then that's on you.
Right. Well,
[00:43:26] Dr. Brooke Scheller: again, that's a little bit, there are benefits to the industry that it looks that way. Right? Because it makes you not question it until you have lost everything. You're going, you know, you need to go to an AA meeting. And I know that you and I both feel very strongly about helping people who do sit maybe in more of that gray area because you don't have to be, you don't have to have lost everything to quit drinking alcohol.
In fact, you're stronger for quitting before you get to that point. And, um, but unfortunately, the world is still very much in that camp of you drink unless, you know, unless you're court ordered to not, or, you know, you've lost your family and you have to stop. And then we celebrate it. Right. But there is still much of a stigma and a, and a label that goes, um, you know, on a lot of folks in that way.
And, and unfortunately that keeps a lot of people stuck in their drinking habits.
[00:44:27] Heather Lowe: Yeah, we are. You and I are here to change that messaging for sure. And I kind of like to relate it to nutrition, like what you said, like, gluten isn't good for me. Gluten doesn't make me feel good. Now, anyone who's had a hangover, even a slight one, knows that alcohol is a toxin and a poison, right?
Because, and it's that, it's that way for everyone that consumes it. Now, yes, it's broken down differently in men and women and, um, our genetics play a role and our environment plays a role and, um, all the, our mindset and all those things play a role, but truly, um, alcohol can be different for each person, just like gluten can be different for each person.
And so letting go of it. is another way to take care of yourself. Nutrition is another way to take care of yourself. And so, in a true wellness movement, it's about taking care of yourself, right? Mind, body, and soul to be well and feel well. Can you tell me how supplements and medications can support that?
[00:45:24] Dr. Brooke Scheller: Yeah, so I'm a big proponent of supplements and, um, it might not have seen that way when I mentioned things like, you know, all these hot products that come out and, you know, I'm not a fan of these, um, you know, big, uh, highly marketed products and things that you're hearing on podcast, you know, uh, advertisements and things in regard to, I don't think that there's one size approach a bit.
one size fits all approach when it comes to supplements, but supplements can be really helpful in a, in a lot of regards. One is, uh, if we have specific nutrient deficiencies, taking a supplement can help improve that deficiency and help us feel better sooner than just simply eating foods that, you know, that provide that nutrient.
Um, so for example, if we're deficient in vitamin B12 or we're deficient in vitamin D and we take a supplement that can help us feel more energy or improve our immune system, improve our mood, right? So we want to do that stuff kind of quickly. Um, so again, having some personalized testing and things like that can be useful.
Part of the, the, my online offerings, depending on which one, um, which one you choose. We offer lab testing and, uh, kind of provide you some guidance on that if you're interested in, in finding out more about your personal needs. Um, but I do, you know, I'm not a huge proponent of supple multivitamin supplements or these kind of catchall supplements that have.
all the vitamins, all the probiotics, all these different herbs, all these different things, right? Because there's a few things that's wrong with that. One is, um, when you have all these things in one, usually you just have little bits of each one. So it's not necessarily giving you, um, maybe what your body needs.
And, um, and then when it comes to incorporating other things, right? If, if you're taking this supplement that has a little bit of everything and it's got a little bit of ashwagandha in it. But I think you need 500 milligrams of ashwagandha to support your cortisol. I don't know how much is in that proprietary blend, right?
So it kind of can, um, dilute our ability to create a protocol that will really work for you. So people will take these kind of all encompassing supplements, not really feel any different. Maybe I've spent all this money and then thankful supplements don't work, right? And supplements do work, uh, when they're used in very strategic ways.
But I do have a ton of information on supplements in the book. Um, I also have some free resources and things on my website at functionalsobriety. com. Um, but I do use a lot of amino acids like L theanine. Um, L theanine is really great for supporting stress and anxiety. I use it a lot with clients who have.
Like an anxiety driven craving for alcohol. So it's that kind of mind going too quick, uh, you know, worried about things and want to drink to kind of hit the easy button. The L theanine can help with kind of slowing down the brain, helping with stress and that anxiety. Um, and then I use a lot of nutrient supplements.
to support common deficiencies that can occur with heavy alcohol use. So things like our B vitamins, our vitamin D, our omega threes, um, some of our minerals like magnesium and zinc. And so, um, I, if you're interested in learning more about supplements, definitely check out the book, or like I said, those free resources on my website that can give you some more information.
[00:48:55] Heather Lowe: I love this. So I've recently worked with a functional health practitioner and I love it because it's my understanding that there's deeper testing. There's more testing. So if you go to your regular medical doctor, it's almost like they're going to diagnose you when something is present and you go to a functional health and it's like prevention.
They can, before it turns into disease or something, they can see, um, They can do further testing, deeper testing, different testing to see what's really going on and prevent something before it turns into diagnosis or disease. There's preventative measures, things that you can take. Is that accurate?
[00:49:32] Dr. Brooke Scheller: A hundred percent.
And I have a blog on my website actually about, um, what to do when your, your doctor tells you your blood work looks normal and, you know, people go all the time. I hear this. Constantly from folks I work with, like I went to my doctor, I told them I don't have energy, my mood's low, you know, these things are kind of wrong.
And they, they run the standard two or three panels and they say about, well, everything looks fine. Maybe you need an antidepressant or, you know, maybe you, uh, maybe it's your hormones, you know, or maybe you need to lose some weight. You get these kind of like vague recommendations and you get sent on your way.
And the reason why is because they're looking at these really basic panels that are looking at you. you know, liver function, kidney function, kind of general health markers. And those aren't really telling you much. They're not testing your nutrient levels. Um, they're not telling you anything about your digestion and what's going on there, not telling you about your hormones.
Like these are very basic, basic labs. Um, and unfortunately too, even if you do have one or two things that pop out of range, they usually say, Oh, that's, you know, that's, you know, Because, uh, you know, that's usually not anything serious. Don't worry about it. Right. I had had that told to me many years ago about a marker in my, my blood panel.
Oh yeah, it's no big deal. Sometimes it's, you know, just pops out of range and sure enough, come to find out that is the result of a B12 and a folate deficiency, which I have a genetic mutation, um, I have to take extra of that or specific form of it. And so, you know, you just, you kind of get these like, ah, everything's fine.
In functional testing, we look at different labs. We look a little bit deeper. Um, we look at nutrients. We look at the gut. We might look at hormones depending on what someone is experiencing and especially if we have chronic alcohol intake in the past, there is a very specific subset of things that I would want to look at.
I would want to look at some of these nutrients that are at risk. I might want to look at it. digestive enzymes because of the way that alcohol affects the stomach and can affect digestion and absorption. Um, I might look at some of these mood specific nutrients or indicators that can help me identify some other opportunities here.
And so it is really a much deeper dive and, um, it is, uh, something that you usually have to seek out a specific functional practitioner for.
[00:51:57] Heather Lowe: And what if we do this testing? What if we change our nutrition and we ditch the drink and we're not feeling well? How do we know when? When do we have, some of us are neurodivergent, we don't know when that's playing a part.
Some of us really do have depression or anxiety that might be improved, but not solved by not drinking. Can you help me understand when it's beyond nutrition and when we might need some, and beyond supplements that we might need some medication or mental health support and, and the difference of, of nutrition and supplements versus mental health support and medication, medication assisted in that way?
[00:52:39] Dr. Brooke Scheller: Yeah, that's a great question, and there's a few things. One is that, you know, I think we can always look deeper. There are, a lot of different ways to approach this. I'm in an integrative psychiatry fellowship right now, and I'm learning about some other testing and evaluations and things, um, that can help identify those deeper instances.
Um, for example, I have a client who struggled with fatigue and, um, and, um, brain fog and mood issues for a long time. And we had explored a lot of different areas for her. And only recently did we do a specific test that looked at zinc and B6 status, which is kind of a specific style of testing. And sure enough, Turns out she was urinating, excreting out these two nutrients and just simply by adding those two nutrients back in was basically monumental in the way that she was feeling.
So yes, there are ways to look deeper and all of that, but when it comes to mental health, I think it's really, really important if you're struggling to seek, even if it's short term. Medication support because it's really hard to eat the right things, take care of our wellness and these other factors when we can't get out of better.
We can't get up off the couch. And so, you know, you and I've talked about this, Heather. My story includes medication and mental health services. support from a medication standpoint. It also includes a lot of nutrition support and, um, exercise and, and therapy and other things, right? That wellness again, being this, we want this entire approach, right?
Medication can solve some. And I think in a lot of instances is really important. Um, when we're having a really difficult time or we're struggling. But I think it also gets us to a point where we can take better care of ourselves too, right? And that becomes, both sides of the coin there.
But there are absolutely instances where, um, we need, you know, that additional support. Mechanism, and we need to maybe find the right doctor the right provider who can advise us appropriately. You know, one of the other things we're talking about Heather to one before we jumped on is, um, diagnostics are really tough in the mental health space.
And one thing that I'll never forget a colleague of mine in my doctoral program mentioned, and it sticks out to me still to this day is psychiatry is the only field of medicine where we don't use any testing. any like true, uh, blood work lab testing to evaluate what is going on in this person's body.
It's more of a, um, ask questions and let's go with what's the best fit, right? And unfortunately, because of that, you mentioned neurodivergence, people are often misdiagnosed with things, right? They might be, you know, diagnosed with anxiety when they really have ADHD. They might be diagnosed with bipolar when they have ADHD or that could actually be the result of a nutrient deficiency or alcohol use.
Right. So unfortunately, um, you know, we do need to be Uh, really thoughtful about the medications that we take. It's good to get second opinions. Um, I also think it's really helpful to have a therapist that you work with, um, who can help guide you through medication management. Um, and oftentimes when we work with a therapist, we're working with them more often so they actually have a really good idea of what we're experiencing rather than what we're experiencing.
Um, when we meet with a new psychiatrist for 20 minutes and they want to diagnose us with something. You know, I think that there is like over diagnosing happening in a lot of these instances. So it can be really helpful to maybe seek out a few different practitioners, get support from a few different angles, but know that medication is okay and helpful and really, really important to take when we need it and to get us to a place where we can take better care of ourselves.
[00:56:48] Heather Lowe: I love to know that you are taking care of yourself. I think medication is a great way to take care of yourself when appropriate. And I just want to say as a coach, I have clients who were on meds, get alcohol free and get off. And that is a beautiful success story. I love that. I also have clients who address things appropriately.
They maybe change their dosage. They maybe change what they're taking. That is a success story. Some people Get off that medication and get on one that's appropriate for them. Those are all success stories, but it's pretty hard to evaluate your mental health when you're pouring alcohol on it every day, it's pretty hard to tell what is actually happening to you.
And when you ditch the drink, you gain clarity, you learn your body, you pay attention to yourself and working with. Functional health practitioners with a doctor of nutrition, with a therapist, with a coach, with a medical doctor, with a psychiatrist, all of it can go towards finding the right solution for you.
And it also might change over time, right? Like it can be different today than it was last week. And I'll tell you in perimenopause, everything's fricking different than what it was the day before. So yeah. But the best way to take care of yourself isn't with or without medication. It's the right thing for you.
[00:58:04] Dr. Brooke Scheller: Yeah, and you're 100 percent right when you say it's, you know, it's, you can't address your mental health when you're still drinking. It's, it's impossible, right? Because we are not, um, we don't know what that baseline is, right? And I can, this was my experience and the experience I hear from many people, which is, you know, we go to the doctor, we're having anxiety.
Of course, we're not telling them how much we're drinking. They're not really, you know, diving too deep into that, right? And so they don't even recognize that maybe that's playing a role in what's going on. And, um, you know, I think again, it's, it's really challenging to get appropriate mental health diagnoses.
A lot of times people try a few different things before they find the right thing. Um, I, like many other people late diagnosed with ADHD, didn't recognize how that was affecting other things, anxiety. Contributing to potentially addicted addiction and my alcohol use disorder. And so, you know, I think it's really important.
A for us to learn more about these things. Um, it's good to educate yourself and to learn more about these and it's okay to ask your doctor about them too. , you know, I think we also live in this world where we think the doctors know everything and we, we trust their opinions, but it is good for you.
I mean, you're the only one who lives in your body and knows what goes on on a daily hourly minute. to minute basis. And so being an advocate to yourself for yourself, communicating as best as you can with your practitioners and as honestly as you can, um, and doing your own research, like listening to this podcast and learning about this, this is doing your own research.
And maybe this just kind of sparks the next, um, You know, the next interest in you learning more about the mental health topic, if that's something that you're still struggling with.
[00:59:58] Heather Lowe: I love it. Thank you so much for including that again, because so often nutrition is looking at physical stuff and definitely wanting to include the mental health piece and that nutrition can support and enhance a lot of things, but it wouldn't.
necessarily be a replacement for certain medication that you may, that you may need.
[01:00:16] Dr. Brooke Scheller: 100%. And in some people it can be, and in others it, you know, it's at least, um, you know, helps you to get to a space where you can take better care of yourself, right? And that's, that's what it's all about. You know, I think it's really, under, , addressed how much the mental health piece plays a role in our drinking.
And so I think that if you are listening and you're someone who's really struggled with ditching the drink and going alcohol free and you know that mental health concerns are a part of that, um, it might mean addressing those mental health concerns as part of your journey and not the other way around too.
[01:00:56] Heather Lowe: Alongside, definitely, all of this can be alongside. Um, that's why I liked your, your book too, because it can be alongside, you know, versus my mentality, which was kind of like, have all, you know, honestly, like, Twizzlers help me get sober. So, um, and I'm not even a big candy girl, but this can go together.
They can go together and support each other. And you were honest about that.
[01:01:22] Dr. Brooke Scheller: Girl ice cream on a cone for me. I probably hadn't eaten ice cream on a cone in like 10 years. It wasn't like a cone person. I was eating gluten silk this time. Um, and I probably four times a week was going and getting ice cream on a cone.
Six months went by. I stopped having the ice cream on a cone. I haven't had ice cream on a cone since. So you know, I'm not even
[01:01:44] Heather Lowe: at all. Yeah.
[01:01:46] Dr. Brooke Scheller: And that's, and again, I'd rather you do. I want you to develop a sugar addiction in the meantime. No.
But
[01:01:53] Dr. Brooke Scheller: I would rather you listen to your body, if your body is telling you you're hungry, craving something.
I'd rather you listen to that, learn more about this in the meantime, than go fully sugar free, fully gluten free, fully alcohol free, all these things. It's not about that, you know. Have the treat. I think that that's super important. It's not about being restrictive. And especially if giving up alcohol is a huge feat for you, Go have that ice cream or those Twizzlers, right?
Because you deserve to celebrate that. Um, we can worry about the ice cream and the Twizzlers later, but usually what happens is it tapers off. have legs. I
[01:02:31] Heather Lowe: haven't, that clients, you know, it's, worry about that in six m free and we can worry abo you quit drinking, you ca everything you want in li quit drinking, there's no
Continue to drink. You're never going to address nutrition appropriately. You're never going to address weight loss appropriately. You're never going to address your mental health appropriately. Like alcohol is standing in the way of absolutely everything. So all hands on deck, get alcohol out of there.
And if it takes ice cream on a cone or Twizzlers to do it, you know, if you have to pick between a glass of wine and a ice cream on a cone, get that ice cream. And we can talk about it in six months, and you can read Dr. Brooke's book and, um, we'll get you all fixed up for sure. You can have, you can just drink and you can have ice cream and you can address your nutrition and get protein and, and that late afternoon snack as well, which I love.
Um, I always think of you when I have my little apples and cheese in the afternoon. I'm like, Dr. Love it. So proud of me. So proud . Yes. So proud. Thank you for your time today. If, is there any message that you wanna leave our listeners so that we haven't yet talked about?
[01:03:43] Dr. Brooke Scheller: I'll just echo your sentiments, Heather, on, on how you can do anything.
If you can go alcohol free, you know, I, I. Came into my journey thinking my life was over. That was it. I'd never date again. I'd never have fun again. I'd never go to a party again. You know, uh, alcohol, getting rid of alcohol was the end of the world. And, um, actually what it was is it, I eliminated the barrier to all of the things that I really wanted.
Right. It helped me march closer to all of the goals that I had, including writing a book. I always wanted to write a book, had no idea what I would write it about, did not know it would be about sobriety. And, and that's the thing is, when, when our brain clears from the alcohol, we can just see so much.
More clearly and, um, really be the person that we want to be. And you're on the right journey. If you're listening, um, you're here for a reason. I really believe that. And, um, just keep going, eat the ice cream on a cone, but also try the afternoon snack and get the book and, and these other things too.
[01:04:44] Heather Lowe: Thank you.
I'm so grateful that this journey connected us.
[01:04:48] Dr. Brooke Scheller: Me too, Heather. Thanks for having me.
[01:04:50] Heather Lowe: And that's a wrap for today's episode of the Peripeteia podcast, a talk show for women.
! Don't forget to download my free ebook, The 12 Truths to Change Your life. Do it for the plot. \ , We'll see you in the next episode. Lots of love.
