Peripeteia - Fawna Asfaw

 Hey, babe, and welcome to the Parapatea podcast, a talk show for women. This is the place to talk about how we're ditching our bad habits, long held patterns, and limiting beliefs. The time is now to stop outsourcing and start insourcing our happiness and bliss. Am I right? I'm Heather Lowe, your empowering life coach, ready to guide you on this incredible journey of self discovery, empowerment, and freedom.

[00:00:29] Heather Lowe: If you're feeling stuck in the cycle and wondering what life could look like if you liberated yourself, Well, I've got something just for you. I created a free transformational guide to help you take those first empowering steps towards a healthier and more fulfilling life. The one that you desire. This guide is packed with practical tools, mindset shifts, Journal prompts that dig deep and real life insights to support you in making changes that truly stick.

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 welcome Fawna Asfaw to the Parapatea podcast. I am So happy to have you here. I have been trying to catch you for so long. Uh, I first heard you on Mary Tilson's podcast, sun and moon sober living. And as I just shared, I was, I think it was the winter time I was listening. I was puzzling and I was just sobbing in my dining room 

wanting to like hold your hand and give you a hug and your story was so, so powerful.

So when I started a podcast, I knew you were like at the top of my list. So thank you for making time for me today. 

[00:02:01] Fawna Asfaw: Oh, absolutely. I'm so happy to hear you resonated. And I also, you know, after you reached out, just see all the things that you're doing is incredible. And I love women supporting women, especially in the lane of wellness and, you know, recovery and all of that.

So I'm happy to be here. I love it. Thank you so much. So 

[00:02:23] Heather Lowe: when I asked you about a topic, you suggested self recovery. Can you share with me what self recovery means to you? 

[00:02:34] Fawna Asfaw: Yeah. So, you know, I live and work in the world of recovery and mostly that's recovery from substance abuse and Kind of within that comes a lot of different pieces of, and it's not just substance abuse, it can be like, you know, mental health pitfalls and grief, which is actually what brought me to, you know, recovery myself.

Um, but really what all of it culminates in is kind of this awakening. This kind of mourning in this death of this old version of ourselves and realizing something needs to change, something has to give and something has to grow and finding our own authenticity, our own empowerment, and how do we do that in a new way with healthy coping skills and healthy attachments and healthy, you know, relationships and.

Our relationship to substance or whatever we use to kind of numb ourselves before. And, um, yeah, I just, I think it's, you know, it's definitely my journey. It's my journey, what I relate the most to and what I love to teach. 

[00:03:49] Heather Lowe: I love it. I love how you put that for me. What comes to mind is a phoenix. Rising right or a seed a seed that has to completely destruct in order to bloom and grow.

So that idea of burning the ships or, um, getting rid of the old like there is some destruction in that there's some grief in that there's some goodbye in that. And then this awakening. To something new and becoming something new. And if you have, um, an addiction and recovery journey, there is a identity, a huge identity shift there from who you were to who you become, right?

[00:04:26] Fawna Asfaw: Absolutely. And I think anytime we leave or we recognize, you know, we're in a place of where life is not sustainable, which is like, you know, we can, people can call it your bottom. It can be an emotional bottom, spiritual bottom. When you realize, you know, there's no Forward movement with the same things that I'm doing something's got to give and I love that moment because I think that's where the ego dies and we're actually open to receive support and help and and think of, you know, what do we really want?

Like, how do I want to show up in this life? How do I want to behave in this life? What do I want to receive in this life? And I think we can really ask ourselves those questions if we're kind of Uncomfortable enough. 

[00:05:14] Heather Lowe: Yeah, I hear you. Oh, yeah, it took a lot, but that, um, I need help moment and as us strong independent women don't need, right?

Like, like, yeah, that ego, like for both of us, I think it was a tough thing to crack. We held as long as we possibly could until you're right. It wasn't sustainable. There was no way forward. We had to surrender. And, um, ask for help. And that is a beautiful moment. Can you tell me a little bit about your background?

Like what led up to this awakening for you? 

[00:05:49] Fawna Asfaw: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, well, everything in my life is pretty unsustainable. Like, you know, like, I really had the mantra of like, If I just push hard enough, like, uh, I can get through the pain, I can get through the grief, I can get through everything without really ever having to like feel it and, and kind of recognize what needed to happen.

So I hit a rock bottom when my, um, parents passed away. And, um, my dad had passed, uh, previously and I was the caretaker for both my parents. So when my mom passed, it was like, This end of who I knew myself to be at that time. I knew, I only knew myself as this caretaker, this kind of like push, push, push.

Don't recognize any of the, your, your tank's on empty, your body can't keep up. You know, you're drinking too much to cope. Like I just, all of it just came crashing into a head. And, um, I really felt powerless. Like I felt. Absolutely destroyed, and I had no idea what to do, no idea what to do. And for me, now looking back, like, that was my miracle moment.

That was my blessing into, you know, finally being able to, like, want to look deeper. And, um, I had to create a whole new version of myself that wasn't built on Me taking care of other people or, you know, people pleasing or numbing my feelings through alcohol or, you know, overworking myself to death. I had to start taking care of my body and like learning how to process my emotions and my feelings and find my identity outside of these external things.

And it's been a journey. I mean, it's like, it's just, it's like my testimony now because I, one, I didn't know that. You know, you can crash and burn like that. I just, I didn't know that it was unsustainable. So it's kind of like, you don't know what you know until you know it. So I always kind of love to give people grace when they're like, well, how will I know and whatever, and I'm like, we can't judge it.

It just, it's our life. Like sometimes we're going to hit a bottom and that's. When we do have an opportunity to ask for help, and I was really fortunate that I have had very amazing friends in my, my whole life, um, who knew my parents, who knew my story, who knew that it would kind of break me and, um, I got to ask for help and I got to really immerse myself in mental health, um, you know, treatment and I got to get sober and I got to learn about it.

substance recovery and I got to build this entire new life. On the person that I wanted to be versus the person that I felt forced to be. Mm-hmm . And, um, yeah. It's like, it's a, it's an ever evolving thing, but I've learned, I just, it's taken me to a life now where everything I do springs from that , you know?

Oh yeah. 

[00:09:08] Heather Lowe: It's so beautiful. I don't think it felt like a miracle in that moment. It's probably a very messy miracle. But indeed, now looking back, you can see that that was change in your family leading up to that. Can you tell me a little bit about your background in your childhood? It, I'm guessing, um, sort of not paying attention to your feelings and just carrying on and not listening to yourself and marching through and pushing through and being strong.

I'm saying that in quotes, right, was maybe the, the vibe of the family and a way to protect yourself and a way to keep going like that was the all these things that we do are meant for protection, right? Like there are survival in that moment. It's just that we continue to carry it with us long after it's useful.

So what was it like growing up for you in your in your household with your parents? 

[00:10:04] Fawna Asfaw: Yeah, I've come to learn a lot of people can relate to this, but I grew up in an immigrant household. And regardless, if they're not immigrants, they can relate to this kind of mentality of Um, you just put your head down and you just work super, super hard.

Yeah, the feelings are irrelevant. You know, the, the emotional sharing and the vulnerability irrelevant. It's just, you know, what are you doing? How hard are you doing it? And are you taking care of your family? And that was what I was raised on. And, but I had a wonderful, wonderful, wonderful. family. I mean, my parents were lovely and they just I couldn't have asked for more.

They just only had the skills that they had. And so, you know, I grew up with this like dichotomy of like, I love my parents so much. And I want to do all these things and take care of them. But also like, I don't know how to tap into this. I don't know how to deal with this. And I can't bring it to them because they also don't know what to do with this.

Right. And I grew up in Los Angeles, so I grew up in um, you know culture that is like Be free and, and, and, you know, focus on yourself and do all these independent things and that just wasn't my upbringing So I really had to kind of keep what what was important to me You know my culture and my values but let go like you said of those old survival mechanisms that is really from just It's not so much scarcity, because I don't think my family had scarcity, it's just this idea that, um, it's, it's gonna be hard.

Like, it's gonna be hard, and your feelings are way down on the totem pole of like, Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right? So we were, we were just in there. Mm hmm. And, um, I wanted to go higher. And I think that that's a lot of people when they realize like, oh, I, I kind of, I don't want to numb out anymore. I don't want to ignore my internal world.

I can't. It's seeping out, right? It comes out in all these other ways, and I need to kind of learn some techniques that might be like frowned upon, like therapy, like DBT, like I did trauma work, I mean, I did EMDR, I did it. Everything. I was like, let's go. Cause I never heard of the 

[00:12:47] Heather Lowe: modality. I'm trying it.

[00:12:48] Fawna Asfaw: It's a modality. I'm 

[00:12:50] Heather Lowe: trying it. We're going to heal this inside, right? Absolutely. I was like, what is 

[00:12:57] Fawna Asfaw: this? Therapy? Oh my God. None of it. Like you keep it all in the house. You know, 

[00:13:03] Heather Lowe: well, that's really a beautiful and I would say also a testament to both you and your parents somehow like we want each generation to be able to go a little bit further than the one before, right?

I think that's true for probably all cultures and all families and that they could only go as far as they could go because of again what they were taught and where they were coming from and their survival skills and their fears. Their fears were very real, right? But for you being raised, you know, in a different way in a different time.

You could take that a little bit further 

[00:13:34] Fawna Asfaw: and what a blessing right like I my parents have accomplished so much, you know, because they've walked through fear and coming to a whole new country and and building this whole new life and, you know, they were activists and they were educators and so they were focused on this, you know, helping and being a part of and so The, the idea that you can take care of yourself and help others was kind of foreign.

And so I feel like that's where I've been able to carry the torch and yes, we can be lightworkers and we can do all this great stuff for others, like be a good mom, a wife, a community organizer, but we have to fill this tank first. We got to take care of this shit otherwise. It ain't no leadership. Like I don't know what's gonna happen.

[00:14:25] Heather Lowe: It's the only way if you ask me. I don't know how to do. I actually tried to do it the other way, which I'm sure you did too. You know, I tried to put my needs last and serve everybody else. And It wasn't helpful at all. My, that's where my drinking took a scary turn, right? And when you're drowning in alcohol, it's pretty hard to be helpful to anybody else in the world.

It's pretty hard to do, make a big difference, you know, a big positive difference when you're just drowning yourself. When did you start going to alcohol and was that your first substance? 

[00:14:59] Fawna Asfaw: I'm the old school kind. So I, now all the kids are like alcohol. Ew, that's so gross. And I'm like, yes, we drink alcohol.

Um. Yeah, I went, I, I always have been, you know, like alcohol was like my go to. It was like, can't sleep, great, overthinking, great, um, now I'm grieving, great, like I had, I did not know what to do with emotions, did not. And so 

[00:15:32] Heather Lowe: You tried alcohol, you liked it, and then you, it, it was a good pacifier for all those things.

So you just went to it, like as a teenager? 

[00:15:40] Fawna Asfaw: Yeah. Yeah. And my parents didn't drink. So I went out and found it and I, you know, like I knew instinctively, like there's something inside that is, um, makes me tight and it makes me really, really anxious and I can't sit with myself and I'm, I always have these overwhelming feelings and so like, I always was like, I need something to like, like wash me down and, um, You know, I didn't know that there are coping mechanisms for that and there are, you know, things that we do on a daily basis that keep us centered.

So all I knew was like alcohol works, and it was fun until it wasn't, and it worked until it stopped. And that's what I always, always hear, you know, and I coach women in recovery and Um, you know, it's like alcohol works. It did at the beginning, right? Like it was a, it was a survival tool that we used or it was just fun and fun and fun.

And the problem is it's unsustainable and it's actually a toxin. So it starts attacking us. And it's like this huge grief because you're like, you were my solution. You were You were the, the fun in the bottle or you were the, you know, deal with my feelings bottle and now you're not working and now I can't stop drinking.

So I'm stuck in this. I'm stuck now in this place where it doesn't work. I don't feel any better, but I can't stop. Yeah. And that's the nightmare part. 

[00:17:22] Heather Lowe: Yeah, I relate to that so much. It was, maybe you're wound kind of tight like I am. It's like, it is so nice to have a little relief from being me. Sometimes, like the amount of pressure that I put on myself.

And the racing thoughts and the anxiety and the desire to be perfect and people pleasing and never dissent, disappoint anybody ever and always do the right thing and never make mistakes and be on top of all of it all the time to tamper down a little bit with alcohol. That felt good. Yeah. Good to like smooth those edges.

And it was almost like euphoric to just take a deep breath to let myself be myself for a minute. You know what I mean? Like with alcohol was just, I could chill out a little bit. So I thought. Right. Not knowing it was going to be amping up my anxiety and making me, um, not empowered at all, but actually weak and addicted and confused.

And, um, I've been at a high level, even at, even as a very high functioning person that it was going to make me hate myself and the hating myself was the worst. Part of it for me, right? Like, I don't like myself anymore. I actually don't even recognize myself anymore. I look in the mirror and this isn't me.

And like you, I'm not looking forward to anything. I don't like anything. There's nothing good going on here in my seemingly perfect life. I have everything I want and I'm not happy. What the hell is going on? Right? 

[00:18:47] Fawna Asfaw: Yes. Yes. I relate so much. And that's, that's kind of like what I do in self recovery is. We are learning to shift building from external to internal, and so we are reaching out for substance or reaching out for that drink every time I feel uncomfortable, anxious.

I'm number one. I'm teaching myself. I can't handle that. 

[00:19:12] Heather Lowe: Yeah. 

[00:19:13] Fawna Asfaw: And number two, I'm teaching myself, I have to reach out for something external to make me feel okay. 

[00:19:20] Heather Lowe: Yeah. 

[00:19:21] Fawna Asfaw: And that's a hard story to live on is that I'm not okay on my own and I need this thing so that I'm good enough. I'm smart enough. I can make this meeting all these things, right.

And then, you know, when we finally want to put it down and learn that we can build. All of that internally, the self esteem, the self confidence, the self worth that says I'm okay no matter what happens around me, and I just need to do X, Y, Z. 

[00:19:56] Heather Lowe: Oh yeah, I know how to self regulate. I recognize what's going on inside me, and that's the first thing I need to take care of, right?

And I have ways, and I have tools, and I'm learning how to self regulate, but I didn't learn that, and I had wonderful. Parents too. You didn't learn that, you know, until adulthood. You did learn how to take care of your parents though. You did learn caretaking of others. So can you tell me a little bit about that part of your story?

How long you were doing that and what that looked like for you? And were you conflicted at that time about like, I want to be here for my parents, but I want to go live my life. 

[00:20:29] Fawna Asfaw: Yeah. Um, it was, it was, it was not like, you don't really have a, Say, you know, it's, um, for me, for me and, um, you know, my father got sick when I was around 16, um, so he'd been sick and I'd been taking care of him.

Um, and my mom had to work. So I was caretaking my father until he passed away. Then my mom felt. Under the grief because, you know, they were the love of each other's life and she became super ill So then I had to take care of her and then become the person that the household income and work And so I just kept getting swept under these kind of huge responsibilities and like the caretaking I had eventually, let me just finish that like eventually my mother did end up passing away and um That was the most devastating thing for me because the grief was so compounded, you know, I had my dad, then the identity of the caretaker, then I don't have responsibility anymore, like who am I and who what's my value?

And then, um, I also can't work because now I can't stop drinking. So now I'm like, now I have to stop drinking. So all at once, right. I lost everything. I lost my parents. I lost my family home because I actually sold my family home so that I could go to treatment. Like, within, like, months. Like, it all happened.

And I told my job, I was like, I have to leave. And I, everything just at once. And, um, it was devastating. It was 

[00:22:20] Heather Lowe: down, girl. So were you was your drinking escalating as you were taking care of your mom and then crashed when you lost her, then you went off the rails because you didn't even have to be responsible for taking care of her.

Right. And I'm so sad and depressed. 

[00:22:36] Fawna Asfaw: Yeah. And I've, you know, now because I work and I teach and I'm a substance abuse counselor, it's, we understand now that the disease is progressive, so substance abuse begins and starts with the socialization and, you know, maybe what it turns into a habit. So it had been a habit, habitual drinker for me.

Like it was just like a natural kind of thing. And then it became a dependency where I was like, well, I needed to sleep. I needed to show up. I needed to calm down. And then I think as soon as all my responsibilities went out the window, it, my addiction just was like, great. We have no more barriers. We're going to show you what this disease really looks like.

And I just. I mean, I was drowning, drowning, drowning, drowning in alcohol. And I was just so sad and I had no, I didn't know what to do. I had no, I, and it's, it's such a sad, despairing, really despair moment that I've had so many people share that the situations are different, but that feeling, 

[00:23:44] Heather Lowe: yeah, that's what made me want to hold you in my arms and rock you when I was doing that puzzle, probably two years ago, and hearing your story, just, I get it, compound grief.

Escalated my drinking too. That was the beginning of my end. I had three deaths in a row, all out of order, all shocking, ripped from me in the night kind of situations. And, um, I did those three eulogies in less than three years. And I always wonder if it had been one, would my drinking held on for a little bit longer?

But when there was three, it's like, I couldn't catch a breath and I couldn't, I was drowning and so were you. And we didn't know another way. And now like the danger was like, I couldn't feel good without it. And neither could you and even though that didn't feel good, it maybe felt better than before your drink.

Your first drink of the day felt like relief or at least staving off withdrawal symptoms maybe, right? 

[00:24:39] Fawna Asfaw: Absolutely. So that is a 

[00:24:40] Heather Lowe: total moment of despair. 

[00:24:42] Fawna Asfaw: Yeah, and grief is such a huge part of, you know, addiction and recovery because in, in that disease and in that chaos, you know, we're losing so many parts of ourselves and we're losing, you know, the relationships that came with that.

So, you know, sometimes when it does come to the point where people realize I want to stop, they have to take a look around and see like, whoa. You know, where did everything go? Where did, where did everything go? And, and to, to build a life that you want to live is so important. Because we can come in with like the self esteem of a mustard seed, like you said, like we could come in so tiny.

And I think it's so important to help people build back a life that they want to show up for. And because it's going to look different. 

[00:25:42] Heather Lowe: Yeah. Did you know that's what you were getting into when you entered rehab? Sold your family home, took yourself to rehab. Did you have a support system, a friend? 

[00:25:53] Fawna Asfaw: I did.

I do. Yeah. My, I've had the same, my childhood friends since we were like six and in middle school. And, um, you know, those old school, like our families knew each other and everything. So they are my family. Yeah. They're absolutely my family. They're the ones that organized for me to. Go get treatment.

They're the ones that went on family day to visit. Um, you know, they're the ones that kept my momentum going. And I was just like, I, I have love. I know love. And I want to show up for that love. I don't want to die. I don't want to burn this all to the ground. I just need to learn a whole new way. And you knew that you 

[00:26:39] Heather Lowe: were like, okay, take me, give me the therapies, we got to turn the ship around.

[00:26:46] Fawna Asfaw: Yeah. All I knew was I was like, okay, whatever this is, I don't want to fix it. 

[00:26:52] Heather Lowe: I'm going to die from this if I keep going on this track. So I'm going to go, I'm going to try this track and see where that takes me. And then what was that rehab experience like for you? I mean, now you're so eager. You're like, I'll do it.

All of it. Show me, teach me, heal me. Were you like that at that time? Or were you, did you have some resistance or, um, how did you go in? Yeah, 

[00:27:15] Fawna Asfaw: I didn't have resistance. I, it's quite rare. My experience is quite rare because now I work in it. So I understand it's a, it's a hard thing to wrap your brain around going to treatment.

I get that. For me, the evidence was so clear that whatever was being offered to me was better than what I was, what that was. 

[00:27:40] Heather Lowe: It was a life raft and you were going to grab onto it no matter what it was. 

[00:27:44] Fawna Asfaw: It was an absolute life raft and I was in the deep dark water. It could have been a banana for all I cared.

I was just like, let me hold on to something. So what a lot of people call that is having the gift of desperation. And so I had that ability to be absolutely willing. Like I went in there and I had no resistance. I was just, I was confused. I didn't know what the hell it was. I'd never heard a treatment. I never, we don't do that.

You know, like my culture, like they're like, what she's doing? What? Like I've never been to therapy. I've never done any of that stuff. So. There was a lot. I was mostly scared. I was mostly just like, what the hell is this? But that kind of switched into curiosity the longer I got my footing. And each day you're sober, you know, it builds this kind of like momentum where you're like, Whoa, I haven't had a drink in a week or, you know, like, and I'm still okay.

And, um, so that curiosity turned into what is all this? And kind of like, then I started being the weirdo. I was like taking notes and then I was like, I was like, Oh, I like this. I like this. And then that's when my love of all modalities and treatment and recovery kind of. Blossomed in my head. Cause I was like, a lot of people don't get exposed to this, especially my culture and coming from this.

And I was like, I need to tell people about it because this is wild. Like I lived in Los Angeles. Like I'm not a person living far remote place. And I, it was all news to me. So I was like, there must be so many people who have no idea that they can get this kind of help or even that it exists, you know, and that mental health is health.

[00:29:40] Heather Lowe: Mental health is health. It's the same. It's the same as your physical health. Like it's, you need it. It helps you function. It's related to stress. There's evidence based things. There's research. There's science. It affects everything you do. And, um, being mentally healthy is healthy. You know, like it can't be ignored you it, there will be a physical symptom for a mental health concern, right?

It's going to show up physically in any sort of test anywhere you look. It's, it's necessary. I was talking about it, finally. But it was like foreign concept to you and your family and upbringing like oh we just don't bother with that. Probably for fear if we open that up. We're going to soften and we're not going to be able to put our head down and do this job we're here to do, right?

[00:30:29] Fawna Asfaw: Yeah. Yeah. And there wasn't the inherent value, like you couldn't see, you know, X, Y, Z equals. X, Y, like you couldn't really understand it and I think now so many people are getting exposed to these new modalities and also like mental health is your health and everything internal will show up externally, right?

So the grief, if we don't grieve, it's going to show up in our back. It's going to show up in our kidneys. It's going to show up in our capacity to, you know, even make it through the day. And so people are now starting to put two and two together and see like, Oh, if I do want to live this long, healthy life, I kind of need to do all three like mind, body, spirit.

And, um, yeah, so I'm the more exposure, the better, I think. 

[00:31:27] Heather Lowe: So you do your rehab, your family comes for family day, and then you graduate and get out where you like, this is my life's work now. Yeah. Tell me, tell me how that transitioned for you. I don't know what you were doing before that trying to pay the bills and take care of your mom and your dad and everything that needed to be taken care of, but now you don't have your home and you don't have your job, but you are sober, which is super exciting, right?

It's terrifying. 

[00:31:59] Fawna Asfaw: Yeah. It's super terrifying. Terrifying. I mean, I used to work in music and I'd worked, you know, in different studios and I'd helped with some startups. So I'd had kind of this like lane already. And I just knew when I got sober, I was like, returning to that sounds like kind of a cop out.

It kind of sounds like. I'm not going to be test. Like, I just didn't align with all this new energy and spirit I had because I knew it was kind of toxic. So I was like, let me just give myself time to just like sit and, and, and. Discover. And so I was very fortunate that. Because I had sold my family house, I could afford to do long term treatment.

And that's actually full circle into what I provide now, is I'm an advocate for long term and focusing on aftercare. And aftercare is kind of like My jam because it's anybody can go to treatment. Anybody can go to rehab. I shouldn't say anybody. People are fortunate enough to get to treatment and rehab.

But what majority happens there is it's such a short amount of time that we only get to address the physical symptoms. So sobriety is treated in the body. So we're like physically sober. We learn a couple things, a couple skills, and then a lot of times, we'll just boot you out back into your old environment or back right into the problem area or no plan for something new, and it's kind of sets you up for failure because who are you, what, if you dump a new identity in this old environment with no tools and pathway, it's C.

The likelihood of success is very, very low. Um, so I've been advocating and working in aftercare and showing, you know, like, we can help people build a new identity and build support and consistency and everything around them that reflects that, to give them the best shot of actually walking in this. Um, so that's what it looked like.

And it was just like long term aftercare for me, learning that I went, I did go back to school actually to study, um, counseling and addiction treatment and mental health and, um, uh, Loyola Marymount, Los Angeles, and then became accredited and licensed in Los Angeles. And then I just. building my own kind of program based on what I've learned.

And, um, so I work with clients to help them build their aftercare, to help them build their recovery life. And, um, I do groups all over the place. It's specifically on the grief, the grief and addiction and a new identity. 

[00:35:06] Heather Lowe: That's beautiful. It's beautiful. It's, it's that saying your new life is going to cost you your old one.

So I want to talk about that bridge because it's hard. It was hard for me and I did it too. And I had a lot of privileges, right? Like I had, I was in between jobs and I was going to go back. to jobs, which I was, um, I sold HR solutions. I was often the only female, um, on a sales team drinking or something like part of the job or it did for me anyways.

And I got sober and was like, I was often taught salesperson or whatever, but it didn't sing my soul. And my degree was in social work. And I wanted to go back to my roots. I wanted to help other women like me through this. And I was like, to my husband, I was like, sobriety taught me to listen to myself.

And I can't go back. I was interviewing for jobs. I was about to get offers. And of course I could do the jobs. I had done them. And I was like, I don't want to do this. Even if I can do this, I don't want to do this. And sobriety has taught me to tune in and listen. And I want to go this other path, you know?

So he's like, okay, can you make money yet? I'm like, I have no idea, but slowly started to build, but I see that. And now my life is different. But when I got sober, I wanted to just. Get sober very, very quietly on the side without anybody noticing and without anything else changing. 

[00:36:36] Fawna Asfaw: Oh yeah. 

[00:36:37] Heather Lowe: And that, and then also it felt like punishment at first maybe to like not go to that thing because it might be triggering for me or not do this or not do that.

Now my life has totally turned around. I still have my marriage, my beautiful marriage, you know, so that's good. That remained intact. But, um, My life looks different. My friends are different. How I spend my time is different. My job is different. Obviously it's become my life's work and I love it. But, and now I say if it keeps you sober, it's just another way of saying, is it good for you or not?

Is it good for me or not? So it feels like the right barometer to make decisions, but it didn't feel that way to me in the beginning, you know? Yeah. So when you are working to build an identity with yourself and with your clients, Tell us like you were ready. It sounds like you were like something has to change and my parents are gone and I'm, I'm, I don't have that job and I'm not being a caretaker.

Like I'm ready for something new. Is that true? Yeah. And so I'm going to recover and then I'm going to make this my life's work and, and just change everything that I've been doing up until now. I know 

[00:37:50] Fawna Asfaw: it sounds 

[00:37:50] Heather Lowe: crazy. You were ready for it though. It sounds like you wanted that change. 

[00:37:56] Fawna Asfaw: I was, I was, I was very ready for it.

But it, it also taught me because I was so ready, I was able to kind of like, Pick up all of the, you know, best practices and all of the ways that like, most people are not going to be super willing and super ready. And so I get to meet them where they're at and offer them bits and bits and bits and, um, and know that, you know, my experience was so that I could teach it.

Not that everyone's going to have the same experience. And, um, you know, most of the people that I work with are young, they're younger. And, you know, telling someone you need to like change your playground and change, you know, all these things is, is difficult. But, um, I like to do it in a, in a motivating strength based way that is like, what do you want out of this sobriety?

What do you want? What didn't feel good before? What are we willing to try? And it's basically just piecemealing out a little bit further, a little bit further. And sometimes that even looks like, in addiction, some people are extremely chaotic. They have no structure, they have no routine, they have no consistency.

And creating a life in recovery that is built with consistency and routine, like, In the morning I do a meditation and then I go for a walk and then I work and then I like recovery life balance and all of these things are completely foreign to the way we showed up in addiction. So it doesn't have to look like everything's changed, but you changed.

[00:39:41] Heather Lowe: Yeah, you do. That's what I try to tell clients, too. Like, you start to change in the process, and you look different and want different things, even at day 90 versus day 1. You know, day 365 versus day 11. Like, you start to change in the process, so trust what's happening, right? For you, what were your pillars?

Like, did you start with certain habits or routines or structures that were helpful to you when you went from like the long to the long term? 

[00:40:08] Fawna Asfaw: Oh yeah, well, I think for me my favorite thing that I still use to this day is just Doing a contrary action. So, when I was in my bottom, and kind of the way I've been raised, well, at least handling myself, was, I hand, I, I'll isolate.

I, if I feel uncomfortable, if I feel stressed, I'm gonna pull away from you guys, go handle that by myself, drink, and then I'll come back when I feel better. And, that was, How the majority of people saw me is they didn't even know it had gotten that bad because I like when people say I was a functional alcoholic and it's like, were we functional or was it just really good at lying and being sneaky?

And so people would see me when I was ready to reemerge. Um, so one of the first changes I made was. Being in community and getting into connection when I wanted to pull away. So like when I felt upset, instead of just being like, I'm going to go think about this obsessively for three hours. Oh, I'm going to call someone and ask for advice, or I'm going to go hang out with these other women who are also doing the same thing as me and be vulnerable and be seen exactly as I am.

Oh, I'm 

[00:41:35] Heather Lowe: terrified. I'm like, you're going to let yourself be seen. Horrifying. Don't do that. No, I'm just kidding. It's hard for me. I'm proud of you. I'm proud of you for recognizing that right away. When someone would say to me like, Oh, I never even saw you drunk. I was like, yeah, awesome. That was the goal, right?

I was, I didn't, I wasn't walking around stumbling. I wasn't drinking at my kids school events or anything. I was, or even at work, I was keeping it in check to the outside world. Right. And then going home and. Silently secretly destroying myself. So 

[00:42:08] Fawna Asfaw: yeah, 

[00:42:08] Heather Lowe: so community was, um, it, I, I didn't find it until I was four years alcohol free and that is ridiculous and far too long.

And I know that now, but I was really resistive and I still am. It's still hard for me. It's easy for me to coach people through that to do that myself. So, gosh, I'm proud of you like to be seen for real in a, and when you're having a hard time or When you're not being your best self, right? When you're feeling like your best self, when you're feeling angry or jealous or resentful or disappointed or, you know, any of those things and not just shiny and bright and true love always.

And then to receive whatever support you would get from that community, I think receiving is really, it's hard for me to receive, you know? 

[00:43:01] Fawna Asfaw: I think that's, that's what community helps us do, is learn that there's no, there's no perfect, there's no, life is messy, recovery is messy, everything is meant to just be like, you know, and, and my addiction, like the drinking told me, hide.

Hide deep secrets. Don't let anybody see the cracks. It's going to be destroyed. Everything's going to go, you know, and so it's this complete polar opposite way. And in what I teach her, everything I know is, you know, addiction is disconnection and recovery is connection and anything that I can do because I love to isolate.

I love to isolate, and I love to sit in my head and do this whole theater saga, drama, just, ugh, it's just beautiful, you know? But then I've lost hours in the day, I haven't checked in on anyone, I'm not showing up for anything, I'm just fully in my head in this fantasy, and So that was my first real tool that just kind of rocked my world, was when I want to pull away, go into connection.

[00:44:23] Heather Lowe: That's huge. That's huge. And what do you call it? You didn't call it opposite action. Contrary? 

[00:44:28] Fawna Asfaw: Contrary action. 

[00:44:29] Heather Lowe: Contrary action. Do the opposite thing that you feel like doing. Your old self protection mechanism. Do the opposite. Try new, because boy, that didn't serve you. 

[00:44:40] Fawna Asfaw: Right? You have the evidence. 

[00:44:43] Heather Lowe: We tried it that way.

Let's try it this way. See what happens. Yeah. Okay. So reaching out, connecting community, and you had some of that built in with your immediate recovery and long term recovery there, I'm sure with your, um, yeah. 

[00:44:57] Fawna Asfaw: Which is why I love. I really am an advocate for aftercare because these are the things that will change our lives, but if we're alone, it is so hard.

It is exponentially harder than when we're surrounded by people who are practicing the exact same thing. And so I don't even know if I would I don't know how far I'd be if I hadn't stayed and been surrounded to practice these contrary actions because they feel like little mini deaths, you know, when you're so used to hiding and then somebody says, Oh, call me when you're crying.

Like what? Um, but you're, and when people around you are all doing it, you're like, maybe I can try it. Maybe I can do it. And it's, you know, it's like, um, If anybody can find community through support groups, through 12 step, through if they're in have aftercare, whatever that looks like, it helps so much.

[00:45:59] Heather Lowe: Yeah, and then walk me through. So you're changing your way of being and your way of showing up. You're changing everything Basically about yourself as you're going through this process of recovery Continued recovery, and how does that change your relationships with people who are not in your recovery circle?

[00:46:18] Fawna Asfaw: Yeah. Yeah I'm not the kind of person who's like Dump everybody who doesn't drink. I don't, um, you know, I recognized I had a problem and that was all it was me. I had a problem. Um, and I was really, really fortunate that I had, um, support early on that kind of helped me not use my new found love of life to criticize and judge other people, because it's.

I, I probably would have gone there real, real quick, but, uh, yeah, like I was, I was, I was taught very early that, you know, this is my journey. This is what makes me feel good. And I genuinely love the people around me. And so my job now is just keep asking myself, how can I show up in this relationship? How can I.

contribute? How can I connect? How can I be seen and let them be seen? And so I just took my love of my friends, you know, because I knew they wanted the best for me. They wanted to see me get well. So I was like, I'm just going to show up for these relationships. And, um, it turns out that, you know, some people who don't have substance abuse, just stop drinking when they Get older and their life kind of changes.

So for some reason, they just all happen to not drink really anymore, but that wasn't the case for a long time. And, um, you know, I just had to keep practicing my program of like, I'm the one that chose to do this and this is mine and this is nobody else's and it's not for me to put on anybody else. So I have.

You know, your family's not going to all be, not drink and your friends and your cousins and your associates at work, you know, like this isn't, I hope we know a journey of like pastrating others. It's like I, it's self recovery. And so I am not, I don't just have sober friends. I have All kinds of, and I have people who love recovery, some people who are like, yeah, you know, and I have, um, great friends that have no interest or need for it because they don't have a disease.

But, um, I am the kind of friend I've wanted to be because. of my own recovery. 

[00:48:56] Heather Lowe: Yeah. And I, well, first of all, it's a beautiful thing to outgrow for everyone. I feel like, um, same for me, like everyone around me drinks a whole lot less now that I drink none, I'll be honest. Part of that is probably like for me and part of it is probably aging and outgrowing of it as well.

But you are showing up differently. And, um, alcohol was so selfish. I mean, we were so in our own heads all the time, only about ourself, sneaking around. It's quite exhausting covering up from what you did. When are you going to get more planning? This whole thing. It was pretty hard to be present with people when you couldn't be present with yourself.

And you don't want to ask for help. You want it to pretend like everything was okay. Give a brave face and be like, I'm fine. And then go secretly destroy yourself and then come back when your makeup's And again, Yeah, so now though, you have a chance for more intimate relationships, even with the people that weren't in your recovery circle, right, to say, I need help, or I'm struggling, or I'm lonely, you know, any of those things, and I'm, I'm sure they just want the best for you.

So they're so happy to see you in this way and taking care of yourself too. 

[00:50:09] Fawna Asfaw: Yeah. And, and it's You know, it's like family because I've had these friends since, you know, before the alcohol was a problem. And so it's like, you can't see necessarily the progression of the illness within yourself, but others can.

Yeah. So it's immediately, and I've heard this shared by so many other people is when they start to get sober and practice, you know, these recovery tools, they're like, People say to them. Oh my God. It's like you're back. It's almost like they're like your fate like you're like I you're you but like 10 years ago, but like a new version of the 10 years ago.

And have you ever heard had people tell you that like I say 

[00:50:54] Heather Lowe: to myself, it's you can see it. You can literally see it in my like before and after I've got some before and after pictures and it's like, The lights are on, the lights are on in someone's home. You see, and sometimes I look up, like I said, I didn't recognize myself in the mirror as a drinker.

I didn't. I was getting very bloated. My eyes were dead. I just, I didn't look like myself to me anymore. Yeah, and it wasn't a weight loss. My husband lost 20 pounds when I quit drinking. I was like, I had the problem? What the hell's going on? Um, this is, so it's, it's, and I always say I love my before picture because that was the girl that did something about this.

That was the girl that addressed it. Not the shiny after picture. I love that sad, desperate, full of despair, dark hole, bloated, sad, dead eyed girl because she's the one that took the first step out. You know, but my after picture is like the lights are on, the lights are on in someone's home. You can see it in my face.

And then also like, I look like me. I see my childhood self in my face. Now I see the girl I've always been are like, I think when you're a little like babies love to, to see themselves in the mirror, they love babies just naturally love their reflection. You know, they're curious and interested. Then when they see themselves in the mirror, they'll smile that I'm sure it's such a beautiful sight to them.

That's how we're, that's how we are. And like, as humans, we, we should love our reflection. We should love ourselves. That's how we were born. But we start to find reasons why we're not good enough. Or we start to compare to somebody else. But I remember being a little girl and thinking I was a princess. And my reflection was so beautiful.

And then the world told me there was people that were more beautiful than me. I was not beautiful, right? But now I feel back to like my childhood. I can see myself. And it's a girl that I like that I always liked, you know, it's me. I totally feel that. 

[00:52:50] Fawna Asfaw: Yeah, yeah, that's exactly it. It's, it's so comforting.

And it's also, you know, it's, it's, it's the hope for people. It's like, you know, You, it does change. You can absolutely reverse this thing. And your 

[00:53:08] Heather Lowe: friends had you back. They felt like they got you back. Your childhood friends were like, you're back. Um, you were lost. You were gone for a while. You were lost for a while and you're, it was a return.

A return to self for you. 

[00:53:22] Fawna Asfaw: Absolutely. And now they intertwine, you know, my childhood friends and recovery friends and everybody is like, you know, it's, it's an authentic expression of me now, you know, is, um, I don't keep secrets. Like everybody knows, like what thought is up, like there's nothing secret, you know, I might not tell everybody everything.

If it's like a. Romantic or private or something that I cherish but if I'm in trouble if I'm freaking out if I'm stressed like oh my god I do not keep that to myself anymore now It's almost like I have to get it out because now I know How it feels to fester in it and I'm like, uh uh. I'm not doing that to myself I love up and out of you.

You got to get up and 

[00:54:09] Heather Lowe: out of you. Right. I wanted to ask that your grief journey. How, what is the process of repair and healing from grief been for you up and out of you is one thing talking about it. Sobriety is another first being clear and present. What else comes to mind for you? 

[00:54:28] Fawna Asfaw: What comes to mind for me with my sobriety now that, um, You know, sobriety has been, I think we talked about this before.

I don't, I don't remember if we were recording, but it's like, it was like a mini little gateway. Like, sobriety opened me up to this entirely new existence and world that I did not know existed. And I didn't even know that I wanted for myself. And I didn't even know myself. And so, I think for me, sobriety was the Biggest gift ever, ever, ever, ever, ever given to me, because I don't think I could have done any of this if I wasn't sober.

Like one, I don't think I would have lasted very long, but to, you know, it's, um, you build courage when you do things like that. And so now I'm willing to look deeper and deeper all the time and kind of, Really get to know myself and that does mean looking at my shadow and the parts that I want to avoid and looking at my fears and looking at the self limitations I've put or the old stories I've held on to or trauma that, you know, I, I, I might get a little self pity out of and, and really working through that to see what is being asked of me.

So I can show up more full, more intentional, more authentic. And, um, it's just like, it's an insane new perspective because before I was like. How can I hide more? How can I, um, make myself smaller? How can I avoid and minimize? And now I'm like, what can we get? Like what's under there? Like I'm like curious and I want to share it with people and I want to, you know, help others with their own journey.

So I think sobriety gave me a whole new life, a whole new life. 

[00:56:32] Heather Lowe: And what advice would you give to somebody who's struggling with grief? And then the intersection of sobriety with that somebody that's just in, in the place of despair that you were. 

[00:56:45] Fawna Asfaw: Yeah. Um, I would say you're allowed to feel your feelings, and it's safe to feel, and you're not going to die from these feelings.

because they are huge and the one thing I hope that everybody One acknowledges grief is real and allows themselves to feel the big feelings in a safe way meaning Don't go do it by yourself, like, cry in your living room and then bookend it with a phone call. Or, you know, go to a grief group, or talk about it in therapy, or call a friend.

Some way that keeps you still tethered, so you don't kind of drown in it by yourself. But we have to express it. It has to come out. Otherwise, like you said so well, it's gonna come out sideways. It's going to come out regardless, so either we process it and grieve it, and then we get to come to the other side, and what's always on the other side is, what is this asking me to do for me?

Like, what is this anger asking me to do? Where have my needs gone unmet? Where have I not stood up for myself? Where have I not said what I really wanted to say and you know the sadness is where have I said it so it's not okay for me to be sad like this is humanizing right like it's the it's the common thread like we all live we all die we all grieve.

Mm hmm. 

[00:58:23] Heather Lowe: And 

[00:58:24] Fawna Asfaw: to know that 

[00:58:25] Heather Lowe: you're though, Fawna, like we're afraid to feel our feelings, especially a lot of us do relate to being like highly sensing people or empaths or having these big, huge feelings and we're afraid to feel them. We're afraid that it's not safe to feel them. Like you said, I had never heard it put that way before, but that makes so much sense.

And you, young you orphan. That it wasn't safe to feel the sadness that you were feeling. So alcohol is a perfect numbing agent for that. No wonder. And you had been experimenting with for years by that point. And it seemed pretty effective. 

[00:59:06] Fawna Asfaw: I think that was the biggest thing for me. The biggest roadblock was I had nobody telling me that grief was real.

And that it was so powerful and that you're supposed to feel that way. So, and a lot of people, you know, culturally in this western society in the U. S., like, we look at grief from a very transactional standpoint. It's how many days off do you need from work? How long do you need to get the boxes and organize the thing?

And then, great, when will you be back? Yeah. And in 

[00:59:43] Heather Lowe: other words, it over it. Well, the services are done. I didn't feel because I was doing eulogy. So I wanted to perform instead of feel. And I did a great job performing. I knocked those eulogies out of the park. I mean, I did a perfect job for my people. I know that I did.

I was told that I didn't. I know that I did. And when that performance was done. The service says we're over. Let's move on. Get over it. Yeah. I'm not allowing myself to feel 

[01:00:09] Fawna Asfaw: and that's not grieving. That's not grieving, right? We know how to suit up and show up and stuff our feelings and put on a good show.

Like I, I did a whole ode to my mother at the, I don't remember a bit of it. Like I showed up all the things and then they leave and then the house is quiet and then you're alone and you are faced with the grief. And anything I can tell to people, it is, it's normal. It's absolutely normal. And two, let it the fuck out.

Cry, write, play music, express it. Get it out. Get it out in a way that doesn't harm you. And then connect with community. Anyway, you can.

[01:00:56] Heather Lowe: I love that. And it's going to come up again and again and again and again, and expect it to every single time it comes up. You do, you do all that again 

[01:01:06] Fawna Asfaw: and again. 

[01:01:07] Heather Lowe: Then you make art, you turn it into art and you cry again and you call your friend again.

And you know, in two weeks from now, when you hear that song and it comes up again, you do it again. Forever because and I say to my clients too because they don't know and I didn't know like you feel so sad about that. I say that sounds like an appropriate way to feel. That sounds like the right response to that, right?

We don't want to show yourself for not to, for not, right? Like I think you should be disappointed, angry, upset, sad, whatever it is you're feeling. And you're right. It means Maybe we need to talk about setting a boundary or some more self care or a new coping tool or, uh, resentment, anger. That's a great motivator for, it means something's unjust here.

So we need to maybe express ourselves. There's, there's something you need to do. The feelings, they're, they're, they're correct because of the, that's the way you're feeling, right? It's because you feel that it is the right way to feel. And so we can work through that. And it is it's appropriate. You should be sad if you lost your parents.

That is sad and you loved them and it is a loss. So grief is it is real for sure. Yeah, 

[01:02:18] Fawna Asfaw: it's it's everything is so beautiful is, you know, validate people's grief like because it's personal. And nobody's going to read the same way and it might take me two years. It might take you three months. I have, we, we can't quantify it, but the more we learn how to process through and feel the feelings while also learning how to show up a little bit here, a little bit there, a little bit here is we're now moving with grief.

Now we're still engaged in life while we grieve and that's the beautiful part. It's like, oh life doesn't have to end I don't have to end I can move with this thing and I kind of start building around it And then, and then it doesn't get so heavy and it doesn't get so activating and then it becomes this kind of thing that I get to like honor now instead of it feeling immobilized by it.

[01:03:18] Heather Lowe: Yeah, it goes alongside you. It can, you can carry it alongside you but it starts to feel lighter. 

[01:03:23] Fawna Asfaw: Right. 

[01:03:26] Heather Lowe: Yeah. I love that. I love that. Um, now that you're further along in your journey, in your journey of recovery, how do you continue to grow and work on yourself these days? 

[01:03:39] Fawna Asfaw: Well, I'm doing right now, meditation challenge, I'm doing Namaste.

I know. And it's what I always tell my clients to do. And my sympathy. No, I'm just kidding. Yeah, yeah. I'm like, do you have your meditation practice? And I'm like, wait, where's yours? And so I'm doing a challenge right now to meditate, um, once a day, at least in the night. And then, um, try in the mornings.

That's my next goal is to, I'm not a morning person. I wake up for my schedule. But if I don't have, if I don't need to be up at 6, 7 a. m., I'm not going to be up at 6, 7 a. m. So I'm trying to motivate myself to have that morning practice. Um, and then, you know, I, I'm part of a 12 step program, so I have a daily program that I practice and I have commitments to that program and I have a community through that program and I have accountability and so I'm always working on something because I'm a living, breathing, hot, creative mess.

Like, there's all kinds of shit going on, you know? So, like, I need guardrails that are like, boop, boop, Fawna. And I'm like, oh, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, um, I'm very grateful to have accountability around me that helps me. Always come back into like the inner work, like some, something I'm looking at either a resentment, a fear, um, and my attitude or perspective or behavior.

I'm always kind of checking in with myself and others, um, because I just really don't have, I don't want to have a shitty day. 

[01:05:29] Heather Lowe: I love that. Yeah. Your past self set your future self up for success with that program to say, like, here's what you have this. No matter what, and you're going to show up for it, no matter what, and obviously something's going to trigger you as soon as we hang up or maybe already has in our discussion, right?

So you have to have those guardrails in place because life gets lifey and it happens and a resentment starts to fester, right? Yeah, 

[01:05:56] Fawna Asfaw: being I'm a human being and, um, I learned and I try and advocate so much is if you build a solid foundation for yourself of recovery when you're newly sober, no matter how hard it is, because it's going to be hard regardless, like we've never done this before.

You might as well set up a solid foundation so that you take it wherever you go. So like, I'm out of town, I have my little practice, my daily routine, I'm, I, you know, disconnect for a couple weeks, I know how to get right back on track, I It set me up for life and, uh, and knowing that I can't be perfect, you know, the, the other way would be like assuming that I could just be perfect and do it all by myself all the time.

And I can't, 

[01:06:44] Heather Lowe: I just can't. That is what I tried first. No, 

[01:06:48] Fawna Asfaw: you do. I mean, it's our nature, right? We were like, I can do it, but I, I've, I've been thoroughly, uh, given it evidence that no, I, I can't do it by myself. I just can't. Don't work for me. 

[01:07:03] Heather Lowe: I love it. Recovery is giving you your life and a life in recovery is a life for you.

It's the same thing. And it's been an awakening to you from you with love this whole process. And it's a whole, you've turned a whole new lead from where you were in that moment of despair, right? You have, it sounds like you have joy, you have community, you have joy, you have pride and confidence and self worth and all these things that were missing back then.

[01:07:28] Fawna Asfaw: Yeah, and it's like the things that you think you want, you know, like none of that what she said is external and Everything that I value so much is within You know taking some sweat and tears, but it's like nobody can take that from you Nobody can squander it and then it just like keeps the external kind of humming, right?

So like, if I'm okay, then I can show up for my community and then I feel okay. And so, um, it's just, it's a, it's a very, it feels reciprocal. It feels like the work I do, I receive. And, um, and you know. If you can relate I'm sure because you've had the bottom and you get to live this life now that you were like Intuitively like I don't want that old thing.

I don't want it. 

[01:08:22] Heather Lowe: I'm grateful for it. I can't believe it I can't believe I would be grateful for a drinking problem, but thank god because it woke me up You know what? I mean, and I get to live The rest of my life now, I'm not going through the motions like I think a lot of people are, you know, I probably would be unless we're forced not to be right.

Like, but your story is so beautiful, Fawna, because everything it's, it just came full circle to what you said in the beginning that everything you were reaching outside of yourself for everything you were trying to find in that bottle, you actually have within that confidence, that self worth, that ability, you have all of that.

You didn't need to reach outside yourself for it. You didn't know that at the time. You know, it was all you knew, but you, and now forever, you have it all within and that, that truly is all you need. So, so 

[01:09:11] Fawna Asfaw: beautiful. Thank you so much. This is so much. Thank you. 

[01:09:14] Heather Lowe: Thank you for your time. Yeah. We're gonna have all your information in the show notes, but is there anything, um, before we end that you wanna share with the listeners or anyone listening about the work you do or how to find you, how to follow you?

They'll go to the show notes, but what else do you have to share with us today? 

[01:09:28] Fawna Asfaw: Yeah, if just anyone, if you're interested in learning about recovery, more building a life and recovery, um, you know, it's everything. It's under my name. And, um, lots of interesting folks and I'm going to steal you and I'm going to have you on a podcast too.

Yeah. So, um, you know, we're out here and if you need help, if you're curious, sober, curious, any of those things, please reach out, reach out to Heather. It is such a gift. It is, I mean, I can't even quantify it and I didn't know I wanted it, but it, it gave me everything. That one decision gave me everything.

[01:10:10] Heather Lowe: I'm so proud of you. Thank you for sharing your story with us. 

[01:10:14] Fawna Asfaw: Thank you for having me. It was so good. 

[01:10:23] Heather Lowe: and that's a wrap for today's episode of the Peripeteia podcast, a talk show for women.

! Don't forget to download my free ebook, The 12 Truths to change your life. Do it for the plot. \ , We'll see you in the next episode. Lots of love