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Hello, Toni Will, welcome to the Peripeteia podcast, a talk show for women. I'm so glad you're  here. I have really enjoyed connecting with you over the last few years. We've got to see each other in person at Sober in the City events, and I'm so curious about you because I know you're. A rare female leader in a male dominated industry.

 

So I really want to know all about this. Can you share a little bit about your journey? I know it's in the men's hockey and kind of what initially drew you to it. 

 

Yes. Oh my gosh. Well, nothing drew me to it because I did not seek it out.  It came to you. Okay. Just like a hockey puck in the. Face. Right.  And you don't want one of those.

 

I tell you what, one of those flew in my face. Once I was like, Whoa, um, that was 

 

scary. 

 

But yeah, so I, um, so I'm from Kalamazoo, Michigan. We're not, we're both Ms. Western girls and  I know I love it. Right. Um, so I'm in Kalamazoo, which is Southwest Michigan, and I'm born and raised here. Um, I started my career actually in, um, banking.

 

Uh, I went to Western Michigan university and got my bachelor's degree in business management and. Before I graduated, I got a full time job working for a bank here locally. And, um, I loved it. I loved what I did in banking. I was, you know, moving up the ranks and leading teams and teaching and doing all the things that I love in business.

 

And, um, this opportunity came many years later, um, to join the chamber of commerce. In Kalamazoo, because it was real, it was completely changing. It's how it operated. It was moving inside our economic development, uh, agency. And I was asked if I'd be interested in leading that charge and I'm a high courage person.

 

So I said, sure. I don't know what I'm doing, but why not? Because I love Kalamazoo. And, um, so I did that and I was miserable. I hated the culture. I've been, I've talked very openly about that. The, the, I loved what I did externally for the chamber of commerce. It's amazing to work with small businesses, but I did not like the. 

 

Leadership. And, um, so I left in my mid thirties with a mortgage and three kids and, um, I wanted to do less. I was like, you know what, maybe I'll start my own business. I always wanted to own my own business. I didn't know in what,  and I left and, um,  I started looking for a job. I was just kind of, I gave myself a little bit of time and, um, Which let me just preface this.

 

I didn't have a money tree sitting in my yard. So I didn't have like a lot of time to figure this out. And so I actually, because I wanted to step back, I, there was a job inside the Radisson, which is our marquee hotel downtown Kalamazoo. And they were looking, there's a store was a store inside it called Sydney.

 

And it was like a high end fashion boutique. And I only shopped there on sale because that's, that's in my thirties, what I could afford, but I loved it. I've always loved fashion, but, um,  So long story short, I applied for the job and HR called me and they said, you're overqualified. And I said, I know that's okay.

 

I don't want to be the face of anything. I don't want, um, I want less responsibility. My kids were middle school age, elementary school age. I wanted less. And they said, well, we'll call you back. So several weeks later, they called me back. We got something for you. Okay. What's that? And they said the Kalamazoo wings.

 

So the hockey team  and they said, yeah. And I said, well, I grown up, I'd come to some of the games and I, my response was, I don't know shit about hockey  and the HR person laughed and she goes, no, that we don't want someone that knows hockey. We want someone that knows how to run a business that can build a strong culture and loves Kalamazoo.

 

And I'm like, I guess I am. I mean, yeah, sure. I'm like, okay. I said, well, let me think about it.  And then they told me how much the pay was. And I laughed because it's minor league sports and it was a 35 percent pay cut.  And I thought. Okay. Well, I'm not, I'm a, I'm a mission over money person. I've never money's never been a motivator for me.

 

And I thought, why not? Let's give it a try. And I had very low expectations and here I am a decade later  and it's the best job I never knew I wanted. 

 

Wow. Do you know something about hockey now? I'm just curious.  I know a lot.  And by osmosis, I've also learned a little more about the game of hockey. Oh my God, that's so interesting.

 

So, but banking to start, banking is kind of a male dominated, dominated industry as well. So in college, even your classes were financed, which were probably more. male students than female students? Did you have brothers? Like, is this something that's comfortable for you? I'm like a girl's girl, you know what I mean?

 

So like, I have always loved  everything, everything feminine, everything pink, everything princessy, everything. And then I naturally gravitated towards, um, like social work and helping and healing, you know, like, um, healthcare teaching and all those things. But you, even from a young age, we're doing, we're a female leader in a male dominated.

 

You know, even a major. 

 

Yeah. Well, and that's, it's such a great question because I've never been asked that and I've never stepped back to think about that, but it's true. Um,  everything as I, but what it's funny is I never noticed it because I was raised in a household. My dad was an entrepreneur and my mom was a school teacher.

 

And, um, I was this.  just this, but you know, eight years old, short hair climbing trees. I've always, I was a tomboy and I, and I was the oldest and I have a younger brother.  Um, so I think I was just more, I guess I've always been kind of comfortable in that space and, um,  Yeah. I, I didn't really think of myself as being different.

 

I didn't even notice it until I was a couple of years into my career at the Kalamazoo wings where I'm like, I looked up at a board meeting and I'm like, Holy crap. There's all these men.  Yeah. Some work to do here.  

 

Yeah, I mean, which I would like, I am a coach for women only, um, I had coached men and I'm like, Oh no, that's not for me.

 

Like, I'm like way more comfortable with women and knew that right away. Right. Um, to surround myself with women as comfortable to me, but you were okay. Um, being surrounded by men and so much that you didn't really even notice. You know, like I immediately probably would have my I would have high sensitivity to what, what was going on around me, but you didn't even notice because, um, and you were climbing trees and cutting your hair short and fitting right in anyways, right? 

 

I always liked having short hair. I still do. This is long for me. But, um, it's funny because I didn't, I didn't, um,  Notice I was different and really stood out. Um, I was just recently less than a year ago on a panel at my alma mater, they had a women's empowerment, like a dinner and, and they asked me to be a speaker.

 

And I was like, of course. And one of the questions they asked me was, um, you know, who were your female mentors?  And I had nothing  because all my mentors are men.  And I I'm like, wow. And that, I mean, I've already been doing a lot of work to lift women up in sports, but then I just started to broaden it because, and that's when I started, when I decided to launch my podcast, because I was like, I, I want to lift all women up in wherever they're at.

 

And, um, And, and I have men on the podcast too, because my podcast name is women in dot, dot, dot. And the dots are on purpose because it's not just about women in sports. It's women in social work or women in midlife or women. I had one woman that said women in weird, I mean,  men came from women and the word men isn't women.

 

And so it's all about. Inclusivity for, and the work that I'm trying to do. So yeah, I've just always been comfortable and I will, I mean, just to bring a little levity, like very comfortable around men. I've been married to three of them.  You like, um, you like the bed.  See, I only like one  and we've been married 20 some years. 

 

And I'm always in awe of that. Cause I'm like, I, Josh is it lucky number three.  

 

Oh yeah. 12 times a charm. That's awesome. Well, I love my little Rocky, my dog. He's male. He's the only other male in our house and he's the, the other love of my life. So I love this. You are a perfect example of the hero's journey of really like.

 

Becoming the person that you needed. You didn't even know you needed it, but when I asked a question of who are your female role models, you're like, um, there weren't, there aren't any there, there were none. And my role models were all men. And so you're like, well, there's a gap. We need to have some female role models, especially for women in sports or women in any male dominant industry or women  dot, dot, dot in anything, anywhere.

 

That's um, that's, that's beautiful. You said you were a high courage kind of person.  Tell me what that means.  

 

Yeah, I just Like if there's a mountain,  they're like, you need to get to the top of that. I'd be like, awesome. I'm going to figure out how to do that. I love a good challenge and I won't know how to do it.

 

And, and I'll probably fall down a couple of times, a few times and get right back up. And so I've, I've kind of just, it's, it's how I'm hardwired. It's innate in me. And when I start to look back on the last 46 years and think about. three different career changes. You know, I, I ended a couple of marriages that, um, that took high courage.

 

And my second marriage was abusive, um, which I never thought I'd find myself in, you know, it's just, you know, really,  uh, not being afraid. To say I'll figure it out.  And, um, that's, that's kind of how I just approach things and what came out of that I developed. Cause one day I was asked, well, how'd you turn the hockey team around?

 

I'm like, oh, that's a good question. Cause it's like, it's called unconscious competence. And I was like, Hmm, I really want to reflect on this. So I sat down and wrote out six things I did and those became my leadership pillars. And I speak to them quite often now, I actually just did a Ted talk a month ago on, on it.

 

And, um, it. It's helped me kind of be able to articulate how  to go about  having some, having high courage and like, if you don't know how to do something and you want to figure it out, do these six things and you can too, if you do them, you will likely get where you 

 

want to go.  It's wonderful, but also it's always been in you.

 

It's that little tree climber from your childhood who is going to go up that tree. You'll also go up that mountain and also take that team, um, up whatever ranks. That you have to when charged with something or given an opportunity, you are going to go for it and leaving a relationship is I think the most courageous thing that somebody could do.

 

So good for you. I was just talking to my mom this morning, um, about her divorcing my dad was the best thing that ever happened to me. And she was like, I was young. I was weak. I didn't know anything. Nobody in our family had been divorced. She was terrified. And I was like, you were the strongest person ever to walk away from that.

 

And I'm, I'm forever changed and so grateful. So definitely high courage. 

 

Well, and that probably feels good as a mom too, to hear that, you know, because. You know, my kids were little when, when I divorced their dad. And, um, you know, that can be really, that's a hard decision to make. So I love that you had that conversation with your mom.

 

Oh yeah. And with friends, you know, it's not staying, we often stay for the kids or this or that it's like, that's not always, um, the best thing. So, but. To walk away with that stigma or whatever you think society thinks are, um, a broken home or any of those labels that you probably didn't want for you or your kids.

 

I think it takes incredible courage and strength and bravery. So I'm proud of you. So you come into this hockey space and you're okay. You don't know anything about hockey, but you're cool around men.  Were they cool around you? I mean, was there a little bit of stigma of like I'm going to say a word that we probably shouldn't say anymore, but I'm guessing like the bro club is like, who's this broad, right? 

 

Oh yeah. 

 

Resistance. 

 

Oh, yeah. I mean, it was interesting because I was in my mid thirties when I took this job and the hockey players are the age ranges, you know, early twenties upwards now, you don't see it as much, but there was some players that were older than me and there, I mean, one player that played till 41, you don't see that now, 10 years later, but, um, but yeah, it was,  they weren't quite sure what to do with me, like, who is she?

 

What is, you know, why is she here? Um, yeah. Yes, I've dealt with a lot of micro and macro aggressions over the 10 years, which is why I, um,  why I started women and, uh, ECHL is a league we play him. So the Kalamazoo wings are, it's we're affiliated. And we develop players all the way up to the NHL. So it's NHL, the AHL, so national hockey league, American hockey league, and then the ECHL.

 

So, um, so we're affiliated with Vancouver. So the Abbotsford Canucks, and then the Vancouver Canucks, so our players. Um, and so it's.  Yeah. You don't see, I mean, it's 97 percent white male.  And so when you bring a woman in and they're like, Oh, she must be the head of marketing or, you know, there's a lot of assumptions made about me.

 

Um,  there's, uh, there's been comments about how I'm emotional. Um, there are, uh, what was one thing that was said about me recently that I, what would he say? I was lacking common sense.  And my  

 

who's a critic, like, like another coach or another team or a reviewer 

 

who another team owner within the league.

 

Okay. 

 

And my, I didn't say this out loud because I, I believe in professionalism. I wrote on a post it note  because he said, maybe you lack common sense, which was hilarious to me because I don't. But, um, and then I wrote on a post it note, maybe I lack a penis.  And I kept that in my, and I still have it in my notebook because I, it's true.

 

I don't think that would have been said had I been a man.  And, um, so I work on these areas to, you know, the next generation who are working in these front offices to give them a space to come together as women and empower them through reading books and through conversation. And then I created a women in sports networking.

 

Um, at our league meetings. And so we come together and we get to know each other, created a mentor and mentee program for that. And then I took it national to the national sports forum, because I'm on the steering committee for that. So we continue to, to learn growth mindset, educate so I can pour into the next generations, millennial, because we're Gen Xers, right?

 

So the millennials and Gen Z and then beyond, and I figure, um, and I'm so big into servant leadership that it can help  move forward. You know, the things that I continue to bump into at my level,  

 

what are the challenges? That you face as a woman in, and how do you, in this industry and how do you overcome them?

 

What do you say to the, to the younger gals coming up? 

 

Well, one of the things is I try to be really honest, right? Like I don't, and I, and, um,  I'm forthcoming, like telling a couple of these stories here about some of the things that are said to me.  Um, or, um, how I, you know, some of these things without storytelling, you know,  you can't tell what someone's really thinking.

 

Um, but I'm just really honest and I give, I allow a space for them to be, to ask me questions and not feel like it's really all about at the bottom, at the bottom line of psychological safety, right. And feeling that way. And now I have to have high courage and be willing to share some of the struggles I run into.

 

Um, Um, from some of these men and, um, it's not often that I'm personally attacked, but I have been, and I can attack, by the way, it's not just who I work with, like within the league, it's the fans to like some of our fans at the K wings. I mean, I can get obliterated on social media, depending on how the team is playing. 

 

So it's interesting, um, from that position too, because my gender has been called into play because of the team's performance, which by the way, as a GM, I. I'm not responsible for the on ice product. I'm responsible for the office product, which means sales, marketing, community relations, public relations, broadcasting, our mascot, all of that.

 

Our head coach, he and I work in tandem. And so he's responsible for the on ice.  And we make quite the duo because Joel is black and he's a head coach and I'm a white female GM, very unheard of in hockey  and we're in little Southwest Michigan. So it's really about, you know, all those things and, and talking about it because there are other women. 

 

I'm not the only one in the room per se anymore, but that don't want to touch this with a 10 foot pole. And that's okay. Most of them don't. In my generation, most of them don't in hockey and they don't have to. I will, and I don't know why. And it's not my business. It's it's their personal choice. They don't want to advocate for that and that's okay, but I will. 

 

It sounds to me like.  There's having a confidence within yourself and a tough skin if people are saying stuff about you to recognize what's personal what's not and also to recognize that this there's a gender bias here you don't say that about a male coach or GM like somebody didn't do well because you're because you have a penis. 

 

But because you don't that's good can be used can and will be used against you. Right.  But also, educating the women. And the younger women coming up, but also educating the men. It sounds like to me of what's appropriate and what's not and professionalism amongst colleagues. Can you tell me a little bit about that?

 

Yeah. So it's really, um, so there, so I'm the governor of the team as well. And so what that means is there, each professional sports league is governed by a board of governors instead of like a board of directors, they call us governors and. On that board of governors, there's 29 teams in the ECHL, which is our league.

 

And there's two governors per team, one traditional governor like me, and then an alternate governor. I'm the only female governor.  And so, but then the, then the other 60, there's alternate governors that are some women now.  But then as you funnel up, there's an executive committee and there's 10 of us on this executive committee.

 

I'm the first woman ever to be on the executive committee for this league that's over 30 years old.  So I continue to, to break barriers. I did not get that easily by the way. I had to, I had to work my magic and by magic, I mean, I had to run for chair person of the board and lose.  And I knew I would, I knew I wouldn't get the votes and that was okay because the commissioner called me and said, Toni I just don't want you to feel bad if you don't win.

 

I said, you mean when I don't win and I'm not going to feel bad and I'm not going to stop trying. 

 

Wait, you had to run headfirst into rejection and failure and you did it anyways.  And why did 

 

you do that? Because I knew if I did that, that I would get a seat on the executive committee because I couldn't get a, I wasn't able, I kept getting turned down for, for what I don't think is good reasons.

 

Which the reason was I don't own the team, which is true. I don't own the team, but the person that does own the team trusts me fully, completely wholeheartedly. It says, Toni you run this hockey team. I trust you.  Right? So who cares if I don't  write the checks, I'm managing this business. anyways, but I got the As who I ran against one chairperson.

 

He literally called me after that election, like within five minutes and said, will you be on my executive committee? So I got there,  but I had to run as you. It's no offense. But you had the balls to do it,  ? I did. I had to run,  I had to run head first into rejection. Yeah. And it didn't bother me. And I lost by a landslide.

 

I mean, it was like six to  whatever.  

 

I don't know how you do it. I'm like, nobody likes me. 

 

Well, and that's the thing. Like my husband asked me, he goes, Toni don't the social media comments bother you sometime? I'm like, no, because I know that's not like I'm it's not, they don't know me. 

 

Yeah. 

 

And so to answer your question, there are governors on that board who are my dear friends and they are men and they understand, like they hear me, they see me, they respect me and they like when I told them I'm launching a podcast, I want you on it's called women and they're like, yes. 

 

And it was just the commissioner, the president of the Maine Mariners, the president of the Wheeling nailers. I could keep going. Like there's so many people. You are 

 

educating the men around you as well. And you're lifting them up and teaching them how to lift women up,  how to support women, lifting themselves up actually is what's happening.

 

Yeah. And so I, I realized I'm not going to be the most popular person in the room and I am totally okay with that. I never have been, I've always been a rebel and, um, I didn't always feel like that great about it. But when I stopped drinking, that really helped because I'm like, Oh, this is just Toni Like, and I could come in.

 

To my own, because when I first took this job, I was still drinking and 

 

tell me more about that because I know the journey to sobriety and the self discovery and the confidence. I mean, if you can quit drinking, there's nothing in the world you can't do. So your confidence is built. But if you're drinking too much, if you're like me, you're typically waking up, hating yourself basically every single day.

 

And if you couple that with mean comments and criticism and critique. And already feeling like you're running into rejection and failure, sometimes by choice, sometimes not right that, um, tell me about how alcohol played a role in all this.  

 

Oh, yeah. I mean, so when I, Toni party time was my nickname. That's what my friends came. 

 

Um, so my relationship with alcohol really, it started really when I got divorced the first time I was 29, my kids were four and one, and I was in a, um, very traditional Catholic upbringing. My husband at the time, very traditional Catholic upbringing, his brother's a Catholic priest. He married us. He baptized our children.

 

Like Catholic, Catholic, Catholic, Catholic, you know what Catholics don't do? They don't get divorced except rebel Toni So, you know, we, we split up and, um, I felt a tremendous amount of shame and guilt and I was a social drinker up until that point I didn't drink in high school. Really? I didn't drink in college.

 

I was too busy working. Like I'm a goal, like I love goals and achieving them. So I was just doing stuff like a cop, you know, going to set my career and buy a house and start a family and all these things.  But when I got divorced, uh, that drinking went from. Um, from social to coping, and my thirties was then marked by this work hard play hard mentality.

 

Um, and I, so I was, my career was on the uprise. Um, I remarried at that point. I was real for 11 years. I, I was in the endurance sports doing as a hobby, triathlons and marathons. I did a couple Iron Men, like stuff like that. And so this, like, I've earned it. Reward. And so it kind of alternated between daily drinking and binge drinking.

 

And in about my mid thirties, about the time I was moving into pro sports, I was starting to Google, am I an alcoholic that, uh, and so, um, I went to AA actually for 15 months in 2016 and 17. And I actually liked it. Like. I liked the community part of it. I, I didn't love the framework, a hundred year old, very male driven methodology.

 

But I was at that point that there wasn't much out there besides that, like this new modern methodology was coming of age back then. And so I, after 15 months, my thoughts were, Hey, he's a cult because what I really wanted to do was go back out and drink. So I did.  For three more years  and in October, 2020, I was on a girl's trip up North Michigan and nothing major happened.

 

I just was like sitting around a bonfire drunk and I'm like,  I'm so sick and tired of being sick and tired. Why do I keep doing this?  And I put myself on a 30 day Toni timeout is what I called it. I was just going to do it on my own. I didn't want to go back to a, we're in the beginning of the pandemic or, you know, early stages of pandemic.

 

And, um.  About two weeks in, I was miserable, but two weeks in, I Googled other methodologies to stop drinking besides AA and the snake in mind popped up. So I, I heard about the book before, but I ordered it and I ordered the 30 day alcohol experiment too. And I just kept lengthening from there. Like, so I'm like, I'll do a 30 days.

 

And then I joined the live alcohol experiment and I lengthened again. And then I did sober cysts and I lengthened again. And then by the end of that year, I was like. I told my husband, I'm like, I'm done. He's like, are you sure? I'm like, I think so, but I'm not going to say forever because rebel Toni will say, what do you think you're doing?

 

Toni forever. Oh, you want to break that rule. So I, you know, for me, it's just, I don't drink today. And, uh, celebrated four years on October 12th.  Wow. Congratulations.  Thank you. Yeah, it was, I mean, I was a blackout drinker. I mean, I was, I moved from, I was a bit, wine was my thing. I was, you know, bottles to boxes, uh, cause I didn't really want to know how much I was drinking.

 

Very high functioning. Um, I had a lot of shame around it. I never in a million years would I ever think that I would take the thing I was most ashamed of, which is my relationship with alcohol and turn it into something Like I never thought I'd be on a TED talk stage talking about it. I never thought I'd start a business and help other people and be so open about it or  ever because I was so ashamed of it.

 

But I decided that if I was, I had to close loopholes because I love a good loophole. And the only way for me to close loopholes is to 

 

talk about it.  Wow. I love that. In this way, our stories are so similar and parallel, but it's very interesting to me that.  It's like you had something to prove after your divorce, like the divorce brought shame.

 

And so you had something to prove. So you were going to come back, your comeback was going to be better than your setback. And you are going to come back, you know, like with a vengeance, right? With this redemption and alcohol fueled some of that. So you thought, or seemingly your career is on the rise.

 

You're a single mom doing all the things that moms do. Your career is on the rise and you're drinking. You're drinking, you're drinking, and it's increasing and you're still getting it all done. Now you're high achieving like you've always been, high functioning, likely over functioning, that's definitely what I was doing, and then over functioning to cover up for the guilt and the shame for all the drinking, right?

 

Pretending everything's okay because I desperately need it to be. I don't dare want anyone to know anything is wrong with me or have to worry about me. Or like, I've got it. Like clearly look at my resume. I've got it moving up the ladder. Right. Like, um, I'm doing very well for myself. Thank you very much.

 

Was definitely what I wanted everyone to see in you too.  But it did come. It didn't come to a stop and thank God. And now the ability to share that out loud, like your biggest secret. Um, that's huge. That's really huge. Did that change? Is it this hockey culture or drinking culture? Did that change at work where you were quite, I mean, some of my, I was, um, often it's interesting.

 

I was often the only female in all male dominated sales teams. And so I do sort of get that. And I was part of the boys club. With my drinking and also getting access to decision makers at a networking event or in a bar that I might not have in the office. And I was getting attention, you know, to do a sales or close a sale that maybe wouldn't have happened if I wasn't drinking it.

 

I mean, drinking kind of felt like part of my job. Was it like that for you? 

 

A 

 

hundred 

 

percent. And my beliefs too was, okay, I'm going to belly up to the bar with the boys and I can run with the boys.  And that I'm going to, I'm going to get  places faster and whatever the place was. It doesn't even,  I'm using air quotes because where are these places that I believed in my head, but I'm going to get there faster by hanging out at the bar and drinking and, um, you know,  like living 

 

outside of my core values. 

 

Totally. But I'm like, I was never comfortable with men. And so I just drank probably also to tolerate that and to numb down, to ignore myself saying. You don't want to be in this situation to say, Oh, don't listen to yourself for alcohol on it. Put yourself in that situation, close that deal, you know? So, or this is what you've got to do or whatever.

 

Get your  indicators up.  

 

Well, and I believed, I mean that my relationships, like we were closer again, I'm using air quotes, like we're good friends, but because we're drinking together, which is total BS. Because my relationships now are so much more authentic because I'm just me, right? And you're just Heather, right?

 

And you and I connect because we, I mean, we're like minded women.  And so, and not to say, listen, I, I,  I don't care if people drink, I could give a rip, but yes, the, the hockey culture is very alcohol saturated. Um, and whether it's the business side or on the ice, like, I mean, I, part of my role is I sell sponsorships and want to, you know, like Anheuser Busch, but I'm the woman now at the table that says, Hey, I'm a non drinker.

 

I'd like to see Bud zero here too. When I talked to Anheuser Busch, they're like, yeah, we see that segment growing and then it opens up a whole conversation in that space. So, um, yeah, it's very alcohol saturated and, but it  doesn't trigger me.  

 

Yeah. Well, you advocate for women and you also advocate then for alcohol free options and a more, um, alcohol free friendly.

 

Environment, even in what typically is known as a big beer culture. I'm 

 

only 

 

been to one Blackhawks game here in Chicago, but I 

 

was at the Blackhawks game and it was fabulous. I took my daughter and it's no 

 

fun. I know. Definitely. 

 

Definitely. It's really cool. And you know, you bring up another great point.

 

And I talk about this as like, not only am I a minority by being a woman in this industry, but then you add that I'm an alcohol free woman in this industry. So like I'm a double minority on my day job. But then when you swing over to this alcohol free world that you and I live in. It's very female dominated. 

 

And so that's interesting. Cause I, I straddle both worlds and, but I love that. And I'm always like talking to men saying, come into this world, right? Like come here. Like,  yeah, this was a great community men. Cause I coach 

 

totally. I know. I'm always like, where's the, where's the male referral coach, you know?

 

But, um, of course I can refer to you or whatever. There's, there's a few men, but there's a lot of women, a 

 

lot of  

 

competition or my. Um, but for me, it is harder to find like a male coach, if somebody wants a male coach specifically. Yeah. 

 

Yeah. Oh, it is way harder. And, uh, yeah. So it's, it's, it's interesting.

 

Cause, um, I'd love to see more men come into this space too and talk about it. And so I find them and I'm like, come on over to my podcast. Let's talk about this. Totally. 

 

So how do you lead differently? And you can talk about your pillars a little bit. I mean, we'll take the TED Talk here. How do you lead differently in a space where the leadership is male dominated versus female?

 

Is there a difference or is it the, is it the same pillars that make sense for both? 

 

Yeah. So how I broke the pillars up was like, uh, in my Ted talk was I, I told a professional story and then I told a personal story. So my professional story was when I walked into wings event center in 2015, not knowing that I was a minority, right?

 

So I paint this picture. It's not like I walked in there, kicked the door down, rip my bra off, set it on fire and yelled woman, hear me roar. That's not what happened. Right. And so I tell the story about what, why I was successful in terms of it's because I wasn't a hockey person. I wasn't a hockey fan, and that was a perceived weakness, but actually it was a strength because I wasn't a fan and I could see the business for what it was.

 

It's a product. Yeah. 

 

Like my husband always says, don't bet on your team. You're emotional, right? Like if you want to make a, make a smart bet, but don't bet on your team.  

 

He's a hundred percent right. So what came out of that when, as I was like, okay, how do I run this hockey team? Well, I don't know what to do.

 

Step one. Go to the experts. So leadership pillar number one is go to the experts. Like go to other Tonis in other cities, cause we're not competitors. We're competitors on the ice, but not off the ice. And so I started to, I started with our division and I started to visit the GMs and I just worked my way across the country and into Canada.

 

And over the last 10 years, I visit all the different franchises and I learn from what they do in their communities.  

 

And you can all be successful. That's actually like the rising tide lifts all. It's all for hockey. It's all for the good of the league or whatever. There, there really is no competition with the off ice.

 

It's like you sell more tickets and I'll sell more tickets too. We'll all, we'll all win. 

 

That's exactly it. We're not competitors at all. I mean, on the ice we are, but when you come to the business side, so, so then I take all what I learned over the years and I go to leadership pillar number two, which is innovate.

 

And I take it because Kalamazoo is a very small community compared to the other teams in league. We're the second smallest out of the 29 in terms of population. So what can I do to. Make it work for Kalamazoo. And one of the things I changed right away that I noted was a lot of these sports teams have a smile and dial sales mentality.

 

It's all about quantity over quality. And I decided a decade ago that I was changing that for my, for the Kalamazoo wings, and I wanted a quality approach. I want a relationship based selling. And so I, I created a whole curriculum called sales. Isn't a dirty word. And I teach my team and then I do now it's opened up to others in the league or wherever to teach based off relationship and not, you know, just checking a box because it's a longer term sales approach and you create products that are smaller commitment up to longer term commitment, but it's through the relationship where these.

 

Fans will want to buy more over a longer period of time. So the more you pre sell tickets, the more games you're going to have sold out. Cause then now, now there's scarcity in terms of what's available.  So that was innovate leadership pillar number three. This is a great one. I do it still all the time, make mistakes.

 

Cause that's how you get, that's how you learn mistakes are so painful.  We're all flawed. It's okay.  And we learned and the mistakes can be little like spelling mistakes on marketing materials, they can be like hiring the wrong talent, I would consider that a mid level mistake and then like I had a mistake once or my team where we had to cancel a game two hours before puck drop,  like.

 

You learn from those because they hurt, right? And so making mistakes is a critical one. Um, number four, this is personnel. You're 

 

not growing, learning, improving. If you're not making mistakes, you are just staying comfortable. Like there's no way to succeed and continue to exceed it. Succeed and evolve, grow, heal, whatever it is.

 

without them, but they are painful, but it's, it's actually, it's proof of trying. And eventually it's proof of success that you have made mistakes to get there.  Yeah. 

 

Yeah. Well, and being, because it's  

 

so hard for me, I'm just like reminding myself, really trying to drill this in, but yeah, for sure. Love that one.

 

Yeah. I mean, I can't, I wouldn't be half the person I am without all the mistakes I've made, like, and they've been big ones. Like,  I mean, Oh God, I could go on about some of the stuff, you know, in my drinking days, like, how am I still alive? I don't even know. Like, seriously. Um, So leadership pillar number four is asked for forgiveness rather than permission.

 

Very personality driven. I'm a rebel. I love to color outside the lines. I try different game night themes like rainbow ice is one that I'm really proud of. It's all about, um, hockey is for everyone. And it, it's not just about LGBTQ plus, which that's part of it. I'm a huge ally in that space, but it's about gender, race, socioeconomic.

 

It's about abilities, not disabilities, right? It's inclusion sounds like. It's 100%. And I tell you, it's controversial, but the game sells out every year. And I'm proud of that because, and it's controversial because, you know, we're in the Midwest and, um, and that to me, when it sparks controversy, controversy, we're We're doing the right thing. 

 

And so that's, that's an example of that pillar. Leadership pillar number five is macro manage.  So this is like how I build my culture of my team. And by that, I mean, nobody likes to be micromanaged. Nobody likes to be told what to do and control everything. And so the three most powerful words I say to my staff on nearly a daily basis is I trust you.

 

And I do.  Now, does that mean it's always worked out? Absolutely not.  And that's okay. But, um, I find that they perform even better. We sell more, we put on a better game, uh, experience when I let them be who they are.  And then finally, leadership pillar number six, we take ourselves too seriously, I believe, at least, and so have fun,  like  laugh, we, I, I implement fun into our culture at the Kalamazoo wings, even at home, Josh and I have the same culture here.

 

It's about like. Yeah, we're adulting, but how can we have fun while we do this? And, um, so it's like in my business plans, we do field trips together. We go visit other teams. We travel together. We learn, we grow, we, I do birthday get togethers for them. We call them guilty pleasures and we have fun food and camaraderie.

 

And, you know, so we have a lot of fun.  It makes a difference. My staff turned over 

 

very, very low.  Well, that's a huge outcome. Um, and with Friday, I always say, like, I wouldn't sustain Friday if I wasn't having any fun. Fun is a total top value of mine too. I'm like, we better be laughing. We better be having a good time.

 

Or I'm not doing it. So early sobriety, not that much fun, but eventually, like I'm having the time of my life. And if it wasn't trust, I'd go back to drinking, but I can't find a reason to go back. Right. Like sobriety has given me everything that I could want of a fun and adventurous life, but on a team, having that fun, having that connection, enjoying yourself, we are here.

 

I mean, of course there's goals to achieve, but we're also here to enjoy ourselves. So I love that.  Do you think, what, what advice would you give to women who want to break into a male dominated industry?  

 

You know, I would say this, like, if you're looking to break into the male dominated industry, maybe not look at it that way.

 

Look into what you're interested in.  I always start with interest because what you're kind of interested in can bloom into a passion.  Right. Because I would have never thought in a million years of walking into a hockey arena and doing that. But was I interested in a business that was locally owned in a community that I loved? 

 

Yeah, I was interested. Was I passionate about it? No.  So what I was passionate about was Kalamazoo. So it's like, okay.  You know, I'm paying my bills. I was passionate about that. So,  so it's like keeping the heat on.  Yeah. Keeping the heat on  Michigan winners.  Yeah. So it's like, I was interested. I was willing to try, you know, it's like, I was interested in trying to be alcohol free.

 

Was I sold on it yet? Was I passionate about it? No, neither one of those I was, but that's what I would say. It's like, what are you? Interested in and go that way. And if there, if it happens to be male dominated, okay. Then, you know, we start to say, all right, where can I,  where can I go to the experts? Where can I innovate and make it my own?

 

I'm definitely going to make mistakes because you know, there's not other women doing this or, or whatever. So I would say, follow the interest first and then see what blossoms from 

 

there.  How do you build credibility then? And um, respecting your role, or especially if you are the first, like you have been in many of these roles,  it's never been done before.

 

They don't really trust women. They don't believe you can do it probably. Right.  

 

So first off is the, the, um, one of the things that I, I love more than anything is getting, uh, applying for awards for my team.  And so we have league awards, there's national awards, but you have to create. An experience or do something to earn the award.

 

Right. And so, um, getting accolades and really focusing in on, okay, what do we want to do as a professional hockey team in this community? So where can we bring awareness for like cause games like rainbow ice Alzheimer's awareness? Deaf awareness, down syndrome celebration, um, black excellence. And these are things we truly believe in.

 

This is not tokenism, right? So that's just in the cause space, but we also have fun. So like with a pop culture type games, and then we have like traditional games, but what can we do to tell that story? So we tell the story, right? So when we apply for these awards, so we have earned two Guinness world records.

 

In Kalamazoo at the wings. We won the largest lightsaber battle. We earned that back in 2019 and we just earned another one a month ago for most waving foam fingers, like all these things build credibility. And here's the key over time.  These aren't like this. I've been at this a decade.  Like a decade, 10 years.

 

And so it takes time. And, um, so to,  to do these types of things, to tell the story, to raise your hand, like I do and say, I will host the league awards. I will chair this committee. I will be on the executive committee because I'm volunteering all my time in these spaces.  So, um, it, it's all of those things that lend to credibility.

 

It's really only been in the last 12 months  that, uh, like my career, not like all these things happen in the last 12 months for me. It's like I've have articles written about me. I'm on several podcasts. I'm on. We won more awards for the K wings. I'm on a national stage now. Moderate anything like there's a lot happening all at the same time.

 

Um, but it's not just about me. Right. It's, it's the people that work on my team with me too. And so I bring them like what is your goals, how can I help you get there. And so off we all go together.  

 

Yeah. It's like all that work under the iceberg being done consistently over time is starting to show now you're getting the awards and the accolades and the, um, but the work you've been doing the work and what not to do is like come in, burning your bra saying what, you know, I'm a woman, hear me roar.

 

So you came in a side door, you came in ready to learn. You came in curious, you asked others what they've done. I think that. Must have gained respect and credibility just for that itself, admitting, I don't know about hockey, but I, I'm passionate about Kalamazoo and I have some management skills that I'm looking to grow here. 

 

Yeah. I know how to run a business. I don't know what I'm doing. And I think that, you know, it's interesting to bring that up too, because I have one of my, my good friends and she's a coworker too. And she's like, Toni one of the things I love about you is you're just not afraid to say, you don't know. And I'm like, yeah, I don't know.

 

I don't know how to do some of these things, but I'll, I'll figure it out. Right. Like I'm willing to figure something out and some people are afraid to say they don't know. So I, that would be a piece of advice. If you don't know, that's okay. Because what that shows is how far you can come once you do figure it out. 

 

Yeah, I love that. The honesty. I mean, that's a reoccurring theme you've said throughout, um, this conversation is that you're willing to be honest and that is, it takes high courage to do just that.  Um,  Has, have there been more women since you, is it growing  over the last decade? Do you see a change or a shift in that at all?

 

That you're not the only one anymore?  

 

There is. So of the 60 plus people in that room, in the board room, uh, one, two, three, four, five women now.  So yeah, we're making progress. 

 

You link arms, you hold each other tight. Yeah. What initiatives or changes would you like to see? Um, and like hockey specifically to make it more accessible to women.

 

So,  I'm, anytime I ask for more women  driven initiatives. They don't, they're like, if, as long as you are willing to run it, Toni go for it. And I'm willing to run it.  And at some point I'll hand it off because it's like this. I'm not doing this. Isn't like Toni wills. Like I'm going to hold this forever. I am all about an abundance mindset.

 

Like I, I don't view anything as competition. I'm like, yeah, let's all do this together. And I hope in however many years, whatever that is to hand this off to. The, the women that are right behind me that are just as passionate. Here's the thing. I'm not finding in my level that passion. So I'm at right now.

 

And that's okay because I know the, the ladies behind me are,  are excited about it. They just want to learn to continue to learn more, like how to do this  and not 

 

growing. It sounds like.  

 

so  not question themselves. 'cause it's hard to put yourself out there and be What if people 'cause not all women, to your point.

 

Not all women are okay with the criticism. 

 

Yeah. Yeah. And I don't want 

 

that 

 

job, I'll be honest.  So don't give it to me. I'll come you on. I'll definitely hold that foam finger.  that  bud. Zero.  

 

It is so fun. Yeah. I mean, it's, you know, I found what's interesting is this job suited my personality and because I hold things so loosely, like I like what is meant to be will come for me.

 

I just have to like  have my eyes open to it. And I found this beautiful job that I would have never thought or starting my business or, or what, you know, lifting women up. I didn't,  these aren't, I didn't set out to do any of this. And, but I, here I am. And it feels very. authentic to where I'm supposed to be. 

 

Yeah. And I love how you let yourself be yourself. And it sounds like you've been doing that, you know, I don't know for how long, but maybe always, but you, you identify as a rebel. And so you go with it. You don't make that something wrong with you. It's something you should fight against something you should do differently.

 

You just sort of accept who you are. I'm going to have short hair. I'm gonna. Um, I'm, I have a rebel spirit. I, you know, and then you let yourself be that way and you use it to your advantage instead of a loud inner critic telling you you should be something else.  

 

Yeah. And  I totally agree there are, I've had a lot of times in my life though, pockets, I'll call them where that inner critic has been really loud, especially when I was drinking, but I use that like that inner knowing as a way to guide me.

 

Okay. Toni if you don't like this about you, what are you willing to change it? I always start with a willingness. You don't have to do anything about it, but are you willing? And I, you know, I just listened to that inner knowing because if I'm uncomfortable somewhere, ah, maybe, maybe it's time to shift that.

 

And now I get to the point.  As I've been doing this work on myself for so long that I can see it much faster. And I'm like, okay. I, and it's smaller now, like, cause I've worked on a lot of the big stuff, but this might sound silly, but I, um, I don't know if it sounds silly, but sometimes when I'm under tremendous amounts of stress, I would crave Skittles and cool ranch Doritos and which is like a comfort food for my childhood.

 

Right. And. Um, so it's like when I start to find myself in a pattern of like daily, I'm like, no, no, I don't like this. Like, I don't want to get in that space of daily. So I'll put it on my habit tracker, no Doritos, no Skittles. And then just start to, at the end of the day, I hit this habit tracker every day for the things I'm working on.

 

And sometimes it's things I'm adding. And sometimes it's things that I'm subtracting. And there's that reward in that to say, okay, I didn't do that. No, I haven't had Doritos in 24 days or whatever it is. Um, I want 

 

them now, those cool ranch, but I want them with a Pepsi and a Tombstone pizza, 

 

Friday night, 1991. Okay.  

 

A hundred percent. And mine would be with Dia Mountain Dew. Love.  Yeah. So it's noticing that and it's okay, like in that space, like I don't mess with alcohol because if I, if I have one drink, I want 20, but with, with Skittles or Doritos or whatever, I, I can take it or leave it, but I don't want to cope with it.

 

And  so it's just noting that now to say, Hmm. So I'm, I'm better at that. It's that again, it's that inner knowing and taking myself there. So there were times where I felt like the black sheep and I, I didn't have, um, I wasn't as confident. Um,  I wasn't as solid and knowing who I was. Um, it took some, you know, there were some rough times there for sure. 

 

Yeah, because sobriety is so unnatural in some ways because As humans, we want to fit in and belong, and we're willingly choosing to put ourselves on the outs in all those social situations. It's very hard. And black sheep, yeah, it feels like most people don't want to be the black sheep, like you didn't really ask for that or call that to yourself.

 

Um, even with the LGBTQ community, like nobody's asking to be the odd man out. That typically feels bad because it's just natural to stay with a herd for our protection and want to belong to that group. And you've set yourself outside it and you recognize you've been outside it in a lot of ways, but you're letting yourself be there solid and that confidence has grown over time and definitely with ditching the drink, I would say. 

 

Oh, 100%. Like the alcohol was the last thing. And I say this and it sounds like a gross simplification, but by removing this one thing from my life, it opened up  a whole world of possibilities, which sounds amazingly cliche. And it was hard to remove this one thing. I, I don't like, and I loved what you said earlier about.

 

Being alcohol free at first or sober, whatever the language people want to use, it isn't fun. It isn't sexy. It's hard, but it does get so much better.  It's sexy.  Yeah.  Yeah. Wild horses couldn't drag me back to Toni party time. I got out of that part of my life when I was supposed to. 

 

Mm hmm.  Yeah, that makes sense.

 

I love it. So, um, what's the best piece of advice you've ever received and how has that shaped your leadership style?  

 

Oh, what a great question. What piece of advice? So this always kind of stuck with me. Like my dad has been a big mentor of mine. He's, um, 81 years old and, um, he, and, and you know this, but I have, I talk about it public a little bit publicly, not that it's, I'm ashamed of it.

 

It's just my mom's going through it right now, but she has late stage Alzheimer's. And we just moved her into a memory care facility last week. And so, but my dad, my mom and I had an interesting relationship. Um, my dad and I were definitely closer. She, she wanted to, so I was told I wanted to raise an independent daughter, but I did too good of a job.

 

You're too independent.  And so my dad. Took this little rebel that I was this little fire, the spit fire that I am. And he gave just enough oxygen to that fire  over all these years. And, um, so when I was in college,  I I've always had a love for fitness and nutrition. And, um, I was like, I think I'm going to get an exercise science degree.

 

And I was, I was like, I'm not sure dad. And he was like, listen, he goes, if you get your business degree. Then you can go into any type of business you want. You know, if you, if you pigeonhole yourself too much, then you're kind of in this one space and it's really hard to branch out. And so I thought about that at 19 years old, I think it was 19 or 20.

 

By the time I was really trying to figure out the heck I was doing. And I took his advice and it's advice I still give to this day, which, you know, like. If you get your business degree, and this is just with anything, but I'm able to do a lot of other things. Like I was able to be in banking. I was able to lead the chamber of commerce.

 

I was able to go lead a hockey team because of having this business background. So for me, it was really sage advice at an early age to go broad. And then as I get older and I know who I am, or I can narrow down. So I love that 

 

with college age kids. I think that's great advice. So you have a lot of titles.

 

I mean, you are mom and wife and, um, general manager and you have banker in your background and all this stuff, but you are adding our TED talk speaker, but you're adding a new one. And I want to talk about that just for a minute. Author, author, um, um, Toni party time and to Toni author. Toni author  time.

 

Toni author time, T A T.  Tell me about your book coming out. I did, I did, just so the listeners know, I did get a glimpse at the cover and it's freaking phenomenal. I about fell off my chair. I loved it so much.  But I don't know what's inside. So tell us about, tell us about your book. 

 

So, uh, yeah, it's called not the norm.

 

And, um, basically it's taking my 17 minute Ted talk, which will be out on the worldwide web late December, early January, which, uh, I learned a lot about Ted talks going through that process, by the way, but it's taking my 17 minutes head talk and putting it into a book. And so I would, I, if I were to sink it down to a sentence, it's leadership, like a leadership book meets Quitlet. 

 

Hmm. And, and just combining those two worlds and quit lit. I'm sure your listeners are aware, but it's about literature. It's like a book written about quitting something and in our space it's usually around alcohol or drugs or something like that. Well, alcohol's a drug, but um, a substance sort. Yeah. Yeah.

 

So that's what it, the book is, and it's, um, I, my six leadership pillars are weaved throughout and I tell stories about, uh, my upbringing. Um, how I ended up where I am at this point, uh, I talk about just different experiences I've had in my life and how I've navigated through them and come out the other side.

 

It's really focused on, you know, middle aged women looking to, um, Find courage and make change because what I see, I see a lot of women make themselves small.  And, um, I want to see their beautiful, beautiful peacock feathers fan. And that I feel like this book is helping tell the how, right. And how, how do I do this, Toni And you know, how did you, and some of the, a lot of the challenges I faced in, um, Taking a 

 

space that alone, um, you're doing you're spreading your own wings. Yeah. Your little wings, isn't it? Kalamazoo wings.  Yeah.  Let's hope the producer doesn't cut that out. That was my best line.  

 

Yeah, so the, the book will be released November of 25, so it'll be out a year from now and I'm really excited about it.

 

I've always wanted to write a book. And yeah, I'm excited to add author to  You know, my list of accomplishments and more than anything, it's about helping other people. I, um, I'm not looking at, listen, if I was looking to get rich off any of this stuff, I wouldn't be working two careers. It's because I love it.

 

Yeah. 

 

Yeah. I mean, that's what you said. Mission over money. And, um, being an author, I think everybody that writes knows how. Challenging it is to write  and you spend a lot of time on it and your hourly rate is going to be quite low.  Even if you're a bestseller, likely you, you know, if you want to get rich, probably don't be a writer, find something else to do.

 

Maybe stick to banking.  

 

That's the thing like, like, but my TED talk when people are asking me like, and I am very proud of that, but that's it was never on my bucket list and it happened on accident very organically. Thank you. And, um, I probably put in that 17 minute talk about 80 to 90 hours into it.  And I want to ask 

 

you about that just for the inside scoop, because I have you, this is a little off topic, but what don't we know about TED talks that we should know?

 

Okay. So here's some fun little facts. Number one, they will always be in small theaters and they're all over in case people don't know this. Um, they're all over different communities. So if you're ever interested in thinking, I might want to do a TED talk. Look up your community when, cause they don't host them every year.

 

And like Kalamazoo, the last one they had was in 2018. So they're in little communities, but they will only have them in small theaters. They're only allowed to sell a hundred tickets per Ted talk. 

 

They can drop that red circle carpet down  anywhere in a little theater near you. 

 

Yes.  

 

Yeah. 

 

Yes. And then there are like. 

 

Um, so that was kind of an eye opener because I'm like, Oh, that's interesting. Cause they could really world 

 

stage or 

 

whatever you thought it was. Yeah. And it's, it's operated through nonprofits, like the it's franchised, but it's nonprofit. So it's not about getting rich and, um, it's really about the stories, like one idea and the stories.

 

Um, so, uh, and here's another thing that when you give your talk. Um, it is recorded and then, um, it goes through the process of being approved to be put on the TED platform. You could give a TED talk and it might not get approved. 

 

And you could spend 90 hours on those 17 minutes and  never see it live.

 

Okay. 

 

Yeah. And there's a little fear. Like I have.  And so I won't know until, but, but then I'm like, okay, how would I reframe that? Because I got an amazing experience from that. Um, and it really stretched me as a speaker. Cause it's not like I'm a professional speaker. I'm just not afraid to talk in front of people.

 

Right. And you gave a Ted 

 

talk, whether that gets published or not, you literally gave a Ted talk. So done.  

 

Done and done. So, um, but it was still sting. I'm not gonna 

 

lie. 

 

Of course. I mean, there would be a lot of cool 

 

rastritos after that. Let's be honest. 

 

A 

 

lot 

 

of cool rastritos. And a couple bags of Skittles for a couple of weeks. 

 

Well, and the mindset stuff is at least really important. I, they asked me to close. And I was like, um, is it because my last name is will at the end of the alphabet? And,  and they were like, no, it's because they felt like I was the strongest speaker, um, with a powerful message. And so I didn't go on till 1115  that night. 

 

And that was a whole.  So like little, I took my watch off. I didn't know what time it was. And, um, it was like a whole day at 

 

9 PM.  Don't they know? 

 

And I'm like, I, and I really tried to get out of that closer spot and everyone's like, that's so awesome that you're closing. And I'm like, is it,  um, but it was. It, from what I remember, it was phenomenal because it's, it is  kind of an out of body experience. So, um, but they give you, you have a, you have a coach, you have help with writing the script.

 

You have dress rehearsals. I mean, it's a full 

 

production.  Awesome. Thanks for giving us that inside scoop. So how can our listeners connect with you and support your work, Toni  

 

So I am, um, if you're interested in the hockey side of my life, that's kwings. com. Uh, and then my lifestyle coaching business is mindfulness elevated.

 

com. And then my professional coach development coaching business is, uh, Toniwillcoaching com. If you're interested in getting on the mailing list for the book, um, you can go to mindfulness elevated or Toni will coaching. There's a pop up box. For the book, you'll, you can see the cover cause it's on there.

 

Um, and, um, so I'll be sending out updates as, uh, the book is prepped to be released in a year. Uh, and then I'm on all social platforms. I'm on LinkedIn and Facebook under Toni Lentini, Will Lentini is my maiden name, and then, um, I'm on Instagram at I'm Toni will.  

 

I love it. Awesome. Thank you so much. We'll have all this information in the show notes.

 

I am going to go right now and sign up for all those book updates. So so much for sharing your story, Toni Yeah